Communication in Crisis

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome back to another episode of the Code 321 podcast. I'm joined today by Courtney Tomaino. We're going to be talking about communication and we're going to do a little bit of a different episode today. Courtney is actually going to interview me, which is going to be really exciting for me to not have to lead the conversation and just be a guest on my own show. So excited about that. Courtney, welcome back. Thanks for joining us again today. [00:00:28] Speaker B: Thanks for having me. [00:00:29] Speaker A: If you don't mind, can you just give the listeners just a quick refresher on a little bit about your background and kind of how you got into ems? I know people have heard you before, but let's just refresh your memory. [00:00:39] Speaker B: Yeah. So my name is Courtney Newman. I have been in Vermont EMS for about eight years now. I've worked up from a volunteer CPR member on my local agency to being a paramedic. I've held the role of emt a eft. I've done per diem work. I've done the volunteer stuff full time. I'm also currently my full time role is as the state EMS training administrator. And on the side I practice paramedicine as a per diem member with my local agency. And then I've also been dabbling with some teaching. So I help teach EMT class and I also have been teaching a EMS leadership class. [00:01:23] Speaker A: Nice. That's awesome. And I'm excited because like I said before, I don't actually have to lead the conversation. So we're here to talk about communication, which, you know, I love. I've done a bunch of episodes on that before. So I'm going to turn it over to you and let's just have a conversation. Ask me whatever you want and let's just see where your thoughts are and hopefully your students and the listeners of the show can extrapolate something valuable from what I have to say, which may or may not happen. Yeah. [00:01:47] Speaker B: Great. So another thing that I've been working on is my I've been going through getting. Well, I've been going through a leadership studies graduate program and a lot of what we talk about in that program is communication. Right. And leadership is a skill that needs to be developed just like any other skill. It needs to be developed like a medical assessment that we do on a patient and that needs to be continuously refined to fit situations and for us to really become proficient at it. I think oftentimes that gets looked over when we talk about leadership. One of the components of leadership is communication. Really just whether you call yourself a leader or fall into a leadership position, we as humans tend to really be challenged with communication. There's the basics, very basics of communication. Just do a really quick review. Multiple ways to communicate with people, whether it be verbal, so what we're doing right now, non verbal, so our body language. Right. And then we also have written. And in this day and age, that's actually a really important form of communication that's utilized and that's through text messages and emails. And there's a lot that can get lost in writing. So what I really wanted to talk about is how we, when everything's going right, it feels good. It feels like, yeah, I'm a great communicator. My point is clear. It's getting across to people. But how do we manage situations when it feels sticky? Maybe for example, we have to speak to one of our co workers who is also a friend outside of work, about lack of meeting expectations. Do you have any techniques that you've kind of leaned on in those types of situations? [00:03:39] Speaker A: Yeah. So I think there's definitely a lot to unpack there. I think the biggest thing to remember is that communication itself, just the actual delivery of the message isn't traditionally very hard. It's all of the other things that come along with it, like the emotional relationship you have with the audience, whether that be you doing a lecture for 100 EMT students or you talking to me at the kitchen table, there's a relationship there that we may or may not have. I think that how you're talking, when you're talking, and how the message is delivered is just as important as what's actually in the message. And you kind of alluded to this idea of non verbal, verbal and written. And the thing is, when we're communicating, especially in a professional environment, a lot of the times you're using all three of those tools probably simultaneously to have that conversation. And so I would say the first thing to think about when you're having any conversation, good or bad, is really the relationship that you have with the other part of that communication cycle. So you have the encoder, you have the message, you have the medium and the decoder. Those are like the fundamental principles of communication. And so the way that I'm going to talk to you might be different than the way I talk to Steve Lefler, the CEO of EVM Health. Right. It might be a different relationship and it might be a different medium and it might be a different style of communication. So I think the first question is taking that step back and asking, you know, what type of relationship do you have with that employee? Are you their boss? Are you their support coordinate, are you their peer? And like you said, do you have a friendship? And I think ideally everyone has a friendship with everyone and that would benefit our communication style. And the reason that it does is because it offers trust. And if you don't have trust with the other person, the person, it becomes like tremendously difficult to have tough conversations. And so I would say let's kind of start there with the conversation and think about what type of trust do you have with this person. So if you want to maybe give me an example or kind of give me some feedback on maybe a scenario would be helpful just as far as. So I can get my head around what type of trust and dynamic we have. [00:05:36] Speaker B: Yeah, so let's say that I am, you're a shift supervisor and we've both got the same amount of EMS experience under our belts, but you got into that leadership title at a different timing than me. So now I am part of your crew for the day. And let's say that instead of getting up and following suit and doing station chores and rig check, I decide to just sit at the kitchen table and play on my phone. How are you going to communicate with me to get me to be involved with the tasks that everyone else is expected to do as well? [00:06:20] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a great scenario and very common. I don't think I've worked at a single place that hasn't had that. Ironically, I was just listening to a masterclass with Mike Krzyzewski. He's the coach of Duke and he was talking about this exact thing where he went to West Point University, came out as an officer and got assigned to a company where he was in charge of artillery. And the person who was directly below him, they call him non commissioned officers, was a guy that had been there for like 20 years and could rebuild a machine gun with his eyes closed and knew everything about everything and was there since basically the unit was created. And now you have this 19, 20 year old kid that's his lieutenant that's in charge of running that team. And you can imagine the dynamic that that creates. And I think what you're alluding to is similar where either you're, you have equal levels of experience or more likely, you probably are a younger person with less experience or less, you know, local knowledge about the organization. And now you're in charge of running that team. This happened to me a lot, you know, specifically like when I was in Colchester because I was a per diem crew captain. So I was in charge of a night shift where I had a crew that was assigned to me. And those folks have been there. Some of them have been there longer than I was alive at the time, you know, and so you have to develop this, like I mentioned, the trust between you and the team. And you have to make sure that when you're approaching that conversation, that you're acknowledging what they bring to the table and that you're making sure that they have a place where they provide value to the goal of the organization or the team. Because if that's not there, if it feels like you're telling them what to do, the natural instinct of humans is to not do what you tell them. I mean, if anyone here has a toddler, no matter what you say, if you're like, don't run in the road, they're going to be like, I want to run in the road. It's just because they don't want. They're separating their identity from your identity. And that continues throughout the rest of your life, you know, once you develop that piece of your brain. So I would say maybe take a step back and before you approach that conversation, one timeliness, I think is really key. You know, like, do you need to ambush them while they're on their phone and say, get off your phone. Go wash the truck. Like, we can all imagine what response that would probably create, but maybe you recognize it. You set a good example. You go out and wash your truck. And then maybe the next shift or later in the shift, when you're driving back from the fuel depot, you say, you know, hey, John, I just. I noticed that when you got into work today, like, normally you're pretty, pretty tuned up, and you're really helpful around the station. And I see that you have a lot of influence around people. And I noticed that you, you know, it didn't seem like you were as engaged in the chores, like, is something going on? Like, what's up? You know, Because I think the other number two is we may not see the whole equation, right? The iceberg of if somebody's going through a horrible divorce and you come in there and you're like, do your dishes. This is part of your chore for the day. Like, that's just adding to the overwhelming tsunami of problems they going on right now. So I think you really have to understand what you're walking into. You know, are they already at a 9 out of 10 when they get to work? And maybe, maybe we take care of the truck that day, you know, and then we circle back and say, hey, you know, we can't lower the expectation to meet where you're at. We need to support you to get the expectation. And I'm here to help you with that, whatever that looks like. You know, if it means a little break or if it means a shift in responsibilities to try to accommodate that, like, we're here to help you. But I think if you approach the conversation with the best intentions, thinking about where that person's coming from, that's like the first step. So I think just acknowledging you're already out of the eight ball by acknowledging that that dynamic is there. So I think you're 100% on there. [00:09:48] Speaker B: I think you made a really good point about approaching them with curiosity as opposed to judgment. Right. Like you're allowing them to say. Giving them the opportunity to say, actually, I have been feeling terrible lately. There's been some stuff going on at home, or I've had a rough few shifts. And they get to quantify how they're feeling and qualify that in whatever makes sense to them. We don't get to be like, well, that's not a reason to not do X, Y and Z. Because that's coming from a place of judgment. Like, oh, we've all been there before, so that shouldn't be a reason why you feel like you can sit out, but rather being like, okay, how can we work through this? Like, is this just today that you need some extra downtime? And when we're at the station, that's when you can get it, or, you know, like you also touched on. Is this something that's turned into a pattern? And if it's turned into a pattern, then that's something that really should be spoken about before it gets completely out of hand. And I feel like what shouldn't happen. Right. Is when this behavior is noticed. It would not be the shift supervisor's role or anyone on the crew to then go and speak about what they're seeing without including that individual in their conversation. Yeah, I think that's kind of. That's a damaging toxic culture. [00:11:15] Speaker A: And it's hard because I think having the face to face conversation is a lot more difficult than to just go out to the bay with your buddy and be like, oh, man, Jeff is so not helpful. Like, he just sucks to work with. I hate working with Jeff. That's the easiest. That's the easy out. But I think you really have a responsibility, especially as a leader. And when I say leader, I mean anyone in the team, even, like, the probationary member. Not just people who have formal leadership roles or organizational management roles, but you really have a responsibility to build that trusting culture. And the way that you build trusting cultures. For example, when I was younger and more immature, I might do something like that. I might go out and get frustrated that I'm washing the truck by myself and that they're not helping and that they should really be doing it, or, I'm the crew captain. Why am I doing this? And I think as I matured, I started to realize, like, if I got up and I said, hey, I'm gonna go take care of the truck because it's dirty, right? And I'm just gonna. I'm gonna throw some music on you guys. Chill. Don't worry about it. Like, I got it. Like, I love washing the truck. It's fun for me, which is not untrue, right? It's. It's genuine. And I go out there, if you do that a few times, eventually someone will come out and start talking to you while you're washing the truck, and then they'll start grabbing a brush, and then before you know it, like, that will just be. The culture is like, if you just come in as leading and you say, listen, I don't need your help, but I want your help because you're part of this team, and I value what you have to offer. And the more that we spend time helping each other out, the more we can build this relationship. And I think that people are naturally social animals, and they want to be around each other, and they want to have that. And I think, imagine you were in that person's shoes, right? Maybe you are going through a tough spot in your marriage, or you're going through money troubles, or, you know, your dog just died or something, and you had a lot of that going on. Who would you want to work for as a boss? Do you want the boss that says, I don't care that your dog died? My dog died last week. You know, get your butt up and help me. Or do you want the boss that says, I got this. Like, I'll take care of it. You know, I'm on top of it. Like, we're here when you need us. Let us know how we can help you. Like, and then having that conversation of, listen, I know that you have a lot of stuff going on. XYZ still needs to be done. This is the expectation that we have to function at. So what can we do to support that happening? Whether it's you taking a break or you maybe working a six hour shift instead of a 12, so you can be more present for those hours that you're here because you have to pick up your kids or whatever. And I think it's very helpful. It's almost cliche with like the golden rule, but just flip the script and ask yourself, like, who would you want to work for? Like, if you were in that, if you were on your phone in the kitchen, how would you want to be talked to? And that's usually the right answer. [00:13:45] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And I think something to keep in mind with communication too, as, as we mentioned, that it is a skill and it should be thought of as a skill is it's a choice, right? Like it is a choice to go into the, into the ambulance and talk smack about someone behind their back. It's also a choice to go directly to the person and be curious with them and try to understand and hear what they're saying and why they may be behaving the way that they are. And that one choice is harder than the other. But I think as we continue to develop our leadership skills and understand who we want to show up as, as a. Because you can show up in either way, right? But one way you might connect with a whole group of people in a moment and it might make you feel like, oh, they like me and we're buddies, but it's not connecting over a real genuine, good show of character moment. Right. Whereas if you go and make the hard choice to have that hard conversation, you're. You're showing a behavior that you hope other people will pick up on. You're building a culture that you would like to work in and it might take time, but you're building kind of this more genuine connection and relationship with an individual on your team. So it's really important to take the harder route and slow down and work through that awkward moment with them. How would you set up a conversation like that? Like, are there any, how would you communicate with them in a non verbal form and are there any kind of tactics you use to kind of help ease them into hard conversations? [00:15:38] Speaker A: Yeah, so that's a great question and definitely applicable, I would say that you mentioned communication is a skill. And I also think it's something that you will not get right. And you have to be able to be okay making a mistake and owning that. And I think that that's more valuable than someone who never makes a mistake. You know, one of the things they talk about a lot is, you know, praise publicly and correct privately. You know, so you talked about, you know, being in the ambulance and that other person being in the kitchen. You know, I might be able to utilize that time, you know, quote unquote, behind their back to say something like, hey, you know, Courtney did really well on this call the other day. Like, she made a really good decision about this patient who was in a lot of distress. And the more I do that around people, people are going to start to think, like, man, does. Does Nick talk positively about me behind my back? Is he, like, championing me to people in small groups? Like, it's actually the opposite of gossiping because you're. You're basically championing the people around you to the other people around you without them being in the room. And obviously you want to do that to their face as well, too. But when it comes to the correction, the correction should really never be public. Unless it's, like, an emergent safety issue. It just will not go well if you correct someone in public. It just doesn't ever. You know, even, like, I would argue that, you know, a supervisor calling you into their office, even if the door is closed while the conversation is happening, that's a public correction. Like, if you were. If you were working on a crew and your boss came out and said, nick, in my office now. Like, they know you're being critiqued. Right? And I think that that's a public correction. And you got to be really intentional about how you use that as far as the when and how, which I believe your question was, I think that timing, like I said, is really important. Reading the room is really important. Like, if someone has already had that charged, sympathetic nervous system, they're already in the fight or flight because they're upset or they're frustrated or, you know, this is really common in EMS and fire, where you come back from a really bad call and people try to, like, hash it out immediately. And different people have different ways of coming down from that nervous system response. So if you just had, like, an infant code and you come back and you go to your EMT and you said, how come you can't bag? Do you need to go to EMT school? Like, because you're frustrated, that person's going to respond to that defensively. Because you're all heightened. You're just two lizards talking to each other. You're not actually using your limbic system or your brain. [00:17:56] Speaker B: And not only that, that's going to impact that person's career for the rest of their life, whether you choose to believe that or not. [00:18:01] Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. Right. And it's like the old Maya Angelou quote, what do they say? People won't remember what you did or what you said, but they'll remember how you made you feel. Like those things are all responsibilities we have with each other, regardless of our power dynamic. So I think timing is really important. Taking time to understand where someone is at in that curve. You know, are they able to receive feedback? And one of the things I've learned recently is something as simple as, hey, are you open to feedback on that call? And they might say, no, leave me alone. And that tells you the answer right there. Like, you're never going to get anything through unless someone is ready to receive your message. So I think saying, hey, are you open to feedback on that call? You know, recognizing that they have a choice in the situation, you know, you're not there to punish them or make them feel bad. You're looking to start a conversation. And I think you got to pay attention to the emotional landscape because it's all about emotion. It's not about, you know, if you and I are having conversation, it's not about me or you, it's about you, me and us, like our relationship and both of our individual experiences on Earth, you know, kind of contribute to that dynamic. So I would say privacy is key. Being curious, first, setting the tone, and then the last technique that's worked really well for me and it seems kind of counterintuitive, but is being vulnerable by naming the emotion. So, like if I were to talk to a 20 year captain because he refused to do an EKG on someone that eventually determined to have a stemi on the way to the hospital. Right. I might say, hey, listen, this is really hard for me because you're a really experienced captain and you outrank me in both experience and actual rank. So this conversation is difficult for me and I apologize that, you know, we have to have it. I just feel that it's really important for me. Like naming what you're feeling. Yeah, because then the other person will be like, oh, like he's not fighting me. Like this is hard for him. He's having a tough time. You know, I think that, that we overlook that sometimes. [00:19:52] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think you're touching on a really good point here. And so these challenging conversations, I 100% agree, they have to happen at the right time. And giving someone a choice in when that happens and then not being defensive if they snap at you because that's what they're saying with their to or their body language is like, I'm not ready right Now. And so as a leader who's developed that skill, you know, okay, that wasn't about me, that's about them. They're processing just as much as I'm processing right now. So now is not the time to sit here and be like, let's go over how you behaved on that call. But something that I've leaned into to kind of help guide my conversations is this acronym. We love acronyms in ems. And I learned this from Simon Sinek. So there's lots of other people who have created different ways of the same acronym. I just want to throw that out there. But this one works well for me. So he has this acronym called FBI. And what it helps with is getting through the awkwardness of a conversation. It gives you a guide. So F stands for feeling, which you described. Like, you want to share with the individual how you're feeling and be specific in those feelings. And then B stands for behavior. So what is the behavior that the individual has been doing that's been causing your feelings to occur? And then I is the impact. So going forward, if this behavior continues, I'm concerned that it may have this impact on our relationship and being as candid with that person as appropriate. Right. Because someone, that conversation might sound very different with my boss as opposed to my co worker. But still, the acronym would work in either situation. And you should always start it with, hey, I want to have a tough conversation with you. Is now a good time? Always start there. And then you can get into like, I've been feeling this way lately. And in my mind it's because of this behavior that I've been noticing from you. And if it continues, I'm nervous that the impact is going to be negative on our relationship, causing us to not work so well together. And they're really awkward conversations. I've had these conversations a couple times, and I will say that I can walk away feeling like I was heard, but I don't always walk away feeling like it's better because what we've done is we've ripped the band aid off after having that tough conversation, and now we're allowing that rash or abrasion under the band aid to heal, to be exposed. And it takes time to come back from that. So we've talked a little bit about the verbal and the non verbal. Do you think these types of conversations can ever happen in written communication? [00:22:56] Speaker A: I think so. I think it really depends on the person. And the relationship is key too. Like, I'm sure you've probably gotten a text message, a long text Message from someone, Someone. And you've been able to kind of hear where they're coming from. Like, people are like, oh, you can't tell the tone and text message. I think that's just a crutch for us not wanting to own how we wrote it. Like, I think that you can tell tone. Like, I think just being intentional about that is really key. Written communication is really helpful. And some people respond really well to written communication, both sending messages and receiving messages. Because, you know, like, for example, I have someone in my life that I care about and I love very deeply, who, in the moment, once that nervous system activates, they're unable to have a conversation. They can't. Like, it's just. They're not there. I mean, there's actually been research showing that if you read the book, like, the body keeps a score. This research that shows that when you get activated and you have a trauma history, which everyone in EMS pretty much does, there's actually this region in the brain called the broca region, which controls speech, which actually gives you stroke, like, dysphagia. So, like, if you're talking to someone and you say, hey, why did you do that on that call? And they go. And you go, why did you do that on the call? It's like, biochemically in their brain, they're unable to speak the same way someone who's having a stroke is unable to speak. And then there's times where people are like, yeah, he didn't even say anything. It's like, yeah, because he's so activated that his brain literally shut down. And, you know, you've heard before, like, all I saw was red or I blacked out. Like, that's a chemical reaction your brain is having to protect you from that moment, from that nervous system response. So there are people who, with written communication, can sit down and read a letter or can write a letter and be more intentional about what they're trying to say and really get across what they want to say, how they want to say it the first time, because they can write drafts without sending it. And I've gotten this feedback before, too, that, you know, I can. I feel comfortable sitting down and pretty much having any conversation with anyone at any time. And I've had supervisors that say, like, you come in, and it's like, you just, like. Almost like you've recited what you're gonna say. I ask you a question, and it just comes out, and then it's my turn again, And I don't know what to say because I'm not Ready, Like I'm not ready to speak at the level you're speaking at. And I think that that's true. Like there are people who written communication can be helpful. I do think that the best blend is obviously all of the types. So non verbal being essential about your body language, your timing, your decision making, the trust dynamic, like written communication to kind of clarify or summarize what you talked about. And then that verbal communication gives you that opportunity to have the flexibility to kind of go wherever the conversation is going in real time. But being aware that different people may be able to communicate in different ways at different times. And it's not, it's not like, oh, you Courtney, are a written communicator. It's like maybe about this, this time you are or about something else you're not. So I think, and sometimes it takes a little bit of time to figure out which one is best in that moment and you don't always get it right the first time. [00:25:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. And I do think that there's value in trying them all out in different situations to see kind of where your footing is and because again, right. We are developing a skill and so you gotta get your hands dirty to learn what you're all about and how you're going to show up. [00:26:12] Speaker A: Yeah. I would say the two things that we haven't talked about that are really, really critical is one, tough communication doesn't make or break itself during the tough moment. It's all the work ahead of time and all of the follow up afterwards that really allows for that to work. So like if I had a co worker that I never spoke to and the only time I ever talked to them is when they did something wrong, they're going to hate me, they're not going to listen to anything I have to say and they're going to probably come after me in every way possible possible. Like that's human behavior. And I think we talk about this a lot in communicate in the communication world. Like when I was going through my bachelor's degree about like the emotional bank account. So you know, you and I have known each other for a long time. We've had a lot of really great conversations. I've helped you, you've helped me. We have an emotional bank account. So if I were to see an email come across from the state EMS office and I were to text you and say, hey, what's with this email? Like I don't agree with what you said in here. Can you explain it to me? You would probably be like, oh, and you would explain it to me if you had never met me before, and I just emailed you. And you probably have people who do this. Every time they email you, it's a problem, right? They've never talked to you about anything good. They've never communicated that you've done things well. They've never had any conversation about anything other than what you did wrong. And you probably see that name pop up and you're like, oh, God, like again. And so I think you got to think about, you know, you as a leader. Are you taking the time to ask them about their family, spend time with them, get to know them, see what makes them tick? You know, and there's a really good quote. I don't have it right in front of me, from the Harvard Business Review. But basically, employees want their supervisors and coworkers to know, how do they work best? What do they like to contribute? Where are they talented? Where do they see themselves in the organization? And then where are their weak points that they don't enjoy? And if you know that about your teammates and your subordinates especially, you can really create an environment where they're going to thrive. But if you don't take the time to lay that groundwork and build that emotional capital, and you're just writing checks that you have no money to cash, you're just withdrawing your emotional bank account all the time, which people hate. And I think that sometimes we. We think like, oh, well, you know, if we could just have the tough conversation. The tough conversation doesn't start with the tough conversation. It starts with the four years of history you have with that person and then how you follow up. And then the other thing I was thinking about is I just learned this recently, I'm ashamed to say, but. But we put a lot of pressure on ourselves, especially as, like, first responders, to get things right the first time. And so when we're communicating, it can be very distressing to both parties when it doesn't go well. So, like, if I were to have a conversation with my boss and they get frustrated and they kick me out of their office, it's very tempting for me to get demoralized and frustrated and perseverate on that. Just play it over and over and over again in my head. And this is essentially the same cycle as how people get PTSD from bad calls, is they just don't have a resiliency to work through a mistake, and they get this moral injury. So what we really need to do is stop focusing so much on avoiding the mistake every time make our best effort to do it right the first time, and then if it doesn't go well, own that. You know, to come back 24 hours later and say, hey, Courtney, we. You know, I tried to have this tough conversation yesterday. It didn't feel like it went very well on my end. I'm really sorry if I upset you. It seemed like you were pretty frustrated by what I said. Would you be open to trying again? And I've never had anyone say, no, I'm not going to do, like, usually they're like, yeah, man, I was. That did rub me the wrong way. I was really frustrated, and I did get upset. You know, honestly, I was pretty pissed about it. And you go, thanks for telling me. Like, that was not my intent. And I'm not sure how it got there, but, like, would you be open to trying again with me? Can we try it? And almost always they'll go, yeah, let's go. And then you've built that trust of, like, vulnerability, owning your mistakes. Let me try again. But you're not saying, you know, you reacted badly to what I had to say. You're saying, like, that didn't go where I wanted it to go, and I'm open to trying again. Would you be open to trying again with me? [00:29:53] Speaker B: Right. You're showing that you've reflected on the opportunity and you're feeling like, ooh, that's not where what I meant. And then they, yeah, I can understand where that would make sense, where that builds that connection there. Because you're showing your vulnerability as well, and you're being authentic and recognizing that, like, everybody truly does mistakes, and we. We throw that out there. Like, oh, everyone makes mistakes, but do you believe it? And how are you going to connect with someone on the mistake that was made that makes all the difference? [00:30:26] Speaker A: Yeah, they call it like building the golden bridge. Like, if you back someone into a corner, they're going to pull the claws out and they're just going to fight to the death and to the point where the ego will take over. And I talked about it before. It's kind of like a crass analogy. But if you think of hostage negotiators like Chris Voss, wrote a great book, Never Split the Difference. Where he talks about. Talks about, like, how to negotiate with high stress situations. And he talks about, like, if you don't give them a way out or a way to save face or a way for their ego to relax, they will just shoot all the hostages in the bank on principle just because of their ego. Like, they're not even thinking it's a lizard brain. They're not like if you say, you know, come out of the bank with your hands up and surrender or I'm going to come in there and kill you. You've basically given them two failures as options, right? And they're just going to. The last thing they can have is take everyone down with them, like that's what they're going to do. And the same thing happens in communication. If you go have a conversation with someone and you basically force them to correct themselves publicly, which is basically the equivalent of like death in people's ego minds or admit that you're right, which is even worse. Like if those are the two options or to, for them to look like the bad guy, which then destroys the reputation, which is also a failure. You know, those are like, those are big problems, right? And so when I was new in my career I used to, you know, not do a great job of correcting privately. You know, so if someone made a mistake, I would like email back everyone that's on the chain and say like, actually that's not right. Here's the article showing that what you just said is incorrect. Right. And in my mind as a young guy, I was like, oh, well this is helpful because I'm teaching everyone. But how do you think it makes that chief feel when you have the 19 year old paramedic who just pointed out that he made a mistake. Right. So instead what I could do is I could go to wait a little bit of time, right? Timing. Because is it the end of the world? No, we can wait some time on this. So go to his office and be like, hey Chief, I saw that email he wrote out and I was just curious like if you had seen this article. I just stumbled across it and I was wondering if you had any information about how I should interpret this information. Right, so give him the golden bridge. I'm not saying look at how you're wrong. I'm saying what do you teach me? What you see in this article. And then he goes, oh, oh, I've never seen this before. Oh this, this isn't right, this isn't what I said. And then he gets to email out and say, hey everyone, I just discovered this article. You know, thanks to Nick for bringing it to my attention. And like, this is great. We're going to change this policy based off of this information. He gets to control the narrative and be the good guy and save the princess and slay the dragon. And I think if you take away that opportunity for people and you do it for them. You almost become. You come across almost as, like, manipulative. And, you know, if you just take a step back and think to yourself, did I make it easier for my leadership team to do their job today, or did I make it harder? Regardless of whether you're right or not, I think that's, like, always been a very sobering thought for me because I get so stuck on, like, their crusade of what's right, and I'm like, you know, would I want to be my boss right now? Probably not. So maybe just take a step back and reset and own that and take responsibility, and you'll be a great employee and a great co worker. [00:33:21] Speaker B: Yeah. And also being willing to not have the credit for it either. [00:33:24] Speaker A: Right. [00:33:24] Speaker B: Like, just the. Seeing the success of the team is all the credit you need. [00:33:30] Speaker A: Yeah, you'll get. You'll get the credit. It'll come back. It's just, like, being patient about it, you know, like, it's kind of this windfall of you solve all these little problems at the lowest level and. And also, you know, thinking about playing the long game. You know, they say, like, lose the battle, win the war is like the. The quote that people will say. So if I have a young co worker and they bring something to me, I could absolutely take that, make it my own, and get all the credit. Or I could say, hey, why don't. Why don't you go to the chief and. And present this idea, and I'll support you if you need anything? Right. And then they'll remember that. They'll be like, oh, remember that time that Nick, you know, fed me first and taught me how to fish instead of just went and fished the pond and took all the fish for himself? You know, that starts to build that trust we talked about. That way, if later on you have to have a tough conversation with that person and you do it, they'll remember. They'll say, you know, he's championed me before. He's praised me, he's supported me when I've gone through something challenging. He's been here when I was successful, and now he's giving me feedback. Maybe this is for a reason compared to, oh, all this guy does is take my credit and rob me of my intellectual property and correct me like, I don't want to be around him. And ultimately, like, you need your supervisors and your coworkers to want to be around you before any communication will be productive at all. Like, that's the most fundamental principle of communication is, like, if they don't, like you same thing with your patients. If your patients don't like you, it's very difficult to communicate to them. [00:34:50] Speaker B: Absolutely. I think we've all experienced that a time or two. [00:34:53] Speaker A: And sometimes, you know, sometimes it's like that. You know, if you go to like a really agitated, intoxicated person, it can be very tempting to try to get what you want out of the conversation. But I think it's very helpful to take a step back and think like, what are you trying to get and why are you trying to get it and does it actually matter? You know, I remember being like an 18 year old working with, you know, a career, you know, alcoholic, transient population member in downtown Burlington. And they're just so mean and you get so frustrated. You're like, what is your name? What's your date of birth? I need this bow. And you're just, just, you're just pounding them for this information. And at the end of the interaction, both of you just feel horrible. And ultimately like, registration knows them. Like they're there three times a day, like, what are we doing here? Right? And so like me changing my approach, it was a great opportunity to practice communication when I was working in that downtown ambulance, because you'd get a patient like that, they would just yell at you for 10 straight minutes right in your face. And you could say something like, you sound really upset. And they go, I am upset. And you go, how's your day going? Tell me about your day today. Wow, this happened. That, that. And then eventually you get to the point where you're like, so it sounds like you're hungry. I go, yeah, I haven't eaten in four days. You're like, so if I, if I advocate and try to get some food for you up there, when we get up there, can I have your name, date of birth or like, oh yeah, my name's blah, blah. So take the second to like, you know, what is it Dale Carnegie says, you know, seek first to understand, then be understood. Just, just chill, man. Sometimes it's like the Chinese finger trap. You got to just give a little to get a little and, and don't try to for want down someone's throat. Because if you give them what they need, either emotionally or in that case, like literally a sandwich, they will give you whatever you want. Oh yeah, take a blood sugar. Hey. And then 10 minutes later, oh, I'm really sorry I got upset at you. You know, just, yeah, people are mean to me. It's like, yeah, I mean, if someone was mean to me and I was hungry, I'D be the same way, man. Like, all good. [00:36:39] Speaker B: Two words that I often teach to my EMT students as we're learning about caring for complete strangers and what a privilege that is, but also a vulnerability to those strangers is intention and integrity. Right. So every action that take, we are acting with intention, and then that intention should be full of integrity, like, we're doing it for the right reasons. And so those are two words that come to mind as you're describing this communication, as well, with people you want to. Your intention is to help them and to understand them, and you're going to use integrity. You're going to do it the right way. You're not trying to trick them. You're not trying to get them to perform in a way that you want. Really important as we continue to develop these skills. [00:37:26] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think, like, having mechanisms for recognizing when things are going off the rails, like, especially on calls, is really key. I know me and my partners, when I worked in the downtown ambulances, we would just see a lot of really upset people that were going through a lot of really tough things, both you know, corroborated by drugs and alcohol and compounded by social welfare issues. So, like, it's just a tough environment for young guys to be in and young girls to be in down there, there. And so one of the things that we had an agreement with and my ambulance partners was our safe word was, like, pineapple. So if I was starting to, like, get into an argument with someone, like, to the point where, like, I'm starting to become a lizard, and they're becoming a lizard, and like, you, as a sober person on duty in uniform, should never be arguing with someone who's intoxicated under the influence of drugs. Like, there's just no. No need for that. Right. So if that's happening, you know, I could start to feel it and pay attention to my emotions and be like, look at my partner and be like, hey, buddy, pineapple. And he'd be like, all right. And then I would go drive, and he would. Would start the conversation over, like, just reset and just not let the emotions ride the motorcycle and, you know, take care of that. And the opposite was true, too. You know, there would be other members of the team where I'd be on the fire engine, and we'd go to a call, and that person would start to kind of go off the rails, and I would just put my hand on their shoulder and be like, hey, buddy, pineapple, I got this. And they would go jump on the back of the fire truck, and I would ride that patient up to the hospital in the back of the ambulance and. And do the report and then reset, you know, and it's like, sometimes just putting a little air gap in there will de. Escalate the situation. What you want to avoid is, like, what you see in the news where people turn into lizard brains and they just compound and double down and compound to compound to compound, and before you know it, it's like a dog pile of police officers and paramedics, and now we're pulling drugs out and people are punching each other in the body cam. Like, you want to avoid that. If we just said pineapple and reset, a lot of those problems would go away. [00:39:14] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Well, we've covered everything from nonverbal, verbal, written, and kind of when those situations should be utilized and how they can all be really tough. Do you have anything, any sort of literature that you would recommend to listeners that's specific to communication? [00:39:37] Speaker A: Yeah, so I think having an idea of how you learn best is really key. And I think if you can pay attention to what is sticking in terms of your education and what is not, and then utilize those tools to accentuate the content that you want to understand. So, for example, like, if you're someone that loves to go to conferences and you would. You would like to sit down and have someone lecture this to you with, like, examples and videos and scenarios and like, if that's what you want to do, like, like find a conference. You know, I've taught all over the country teaching this content. I've done online programs. I did the Pennsylvania State EMS conference, like two months ago, and I did this exact topic. You know, so find an educator or somebody that is teaching this content and go out to a conference and socialize and talk about it. If you're someone that likes to watch, you know, foam frat or. Or online videos like Flightbridge, then, then do that. If you like podcasts, there's a million podcasts on communication, and almost every single podcaster I know has some episode that is revolving around communication. And then, you know, if you're a reader, there's tons of books out there you can read. Happy to give a reading list. If you guys get in touch with Courtney or I, we're happy to provide more information on that. But really knowing how you receive information and digest it is key because I think one of the. The ways we go wrong in education all the way from, like, primary school up through college and continuing ed, is we try to force information into someone through one medium. We talked about mediums earlier. So, like, we say, read this chapter and there are some people that like, they'll read a chapter four times and then have no idea what happened in that chapter. It's just the way that their brain is programmed, right? But they might listen to this podcast and be like, oh, the FBI acronym. Like feelings, behavior, outcomes and interactions. They might remember those things easier. So being intentional about how you consume information and how you digest it and knowing what works for you is key. And then don't be so hard on yourself. Like, the worst thing we do in EMS is we avoid difficult conversations because we're not good at it. And it's like, are you going to be the AEMT that just never does an IV because you're so terrified of missing it. Then all of a sudden you have a stroke patient and you're like, oh God, like, just, it's okay, it's fine. Right? Like, we have IV arms, we have partners, we have videos, we have practice. You can do IVs on more patients. Like, that's how you build that skill. And the same is true for communication. And it can be simple things. It can be simple things of, like, you know, next time you're at work, see if you can get another member to wash your truck with you, even if it doesn't need to be washed. See if you can convince them to do that and just practice that and see what happens and take notes and debrief yourself and try again next shift. Like, it's right there for the taking those opportunities. [00:42:16] Speaker B: Yeah. The last concept I'd like to leave with listeners is this quote from Brene Brown that I love. It's so simple and it's just clear is kind, unclear is unkind. Right? So that is the basis of how we communication, of how we communicate. Rather, if we show up and we are clear with our expectations, we show up in our nonverbal cues are well intentioned, well thought out, well displayed. We're clear in our written communication if we feel like that's the form. That is what people need for connection. There's a difference between being kind and being nice, right? Like, nice is more of the sympathy side of things. And kindness brings connection and emotion into the situation. So communication creates connection. Connection is done through kindness. So being clear is being kind. Being unclear is being unkind. [00:43:22] Speaker A: Yeah, I like that a lot. I think there was one, I don't know who said it. There was one quote recently they said, like, honesty without kindness is just mean and let's see the other way around. And kindness without honesty is manipulation. You know, so like just thinking, same thing with Bernie Brown. Like, just think, just be a good human person on this planet. And the more that you do that to the more people around you, the more they will build that trust to have the conversation. And I think we have so much pressure on ourselves as like supervisors and co workers to never make a mistake that you're actually missing out on opportunities for connection because you're not allowing for that space to be there. And I mean, I've seen it a million times myself. Like, I haven't made any forward progress with the difficult personality until I sit down. I go, hey, this is really hard for me because I am concerned about, you know, how you're feeling when I talk to you. I. I perseverate over it. You know, I want to have a tough conversation, but I feel bad. Like, I feel bad about myself, I feel bad about our relationship and I'd like to move forward and find a way where we can communicate effectively. And 99 times out of 100, they're going to be like, I feel that too. Let's work on that together. [00:44:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:31] Speaker A: And then you walk out of that room and then like 20 minutes later, like, hey, Nick, you want to. You want to cook pancakes with me for the crew? Like, and it's just like, it's just an immediate swamp up, but it's this defensive ego. If you're in your shell, you're just. It's never going to make any progress. But that's a great quote by Brene Brown, who's also a phenomenal writer and educator. So definitely a good resource to start if you want to do that. [00:44:51] Speaker B: And you know what, at the end of the day, I'm going to get dark here for a minute. But we're all ems. No one's making it out of here alive. So most of the time we probably take things a little too seriously anyway. So if we all just show up and understand that we're all, it's our first day on Earth. Every single day. The people around you, it's their first first day. It's your first day. You know, just take care of each other. [00:45:12] Speaker A: Yeah. 100. And like, these are the people that are on your team, you know, And I think that's always a really sobering thought for me is like, you chose that organization. You're not going to walk in and change the entire fabric and culture of the organization. That's just not statistically possible. It just doesn't work that way. Even if you are a Simon Sinek, like, you need some people on your team to make that happen. And so if this is the team you chose to be on, you can choose to be there, or you can choose to find a new team. But once you're on that team, your team has to feel that they trust you and that you have loyalty to that group. Because if you're the guy that goes into work every day and you're like, this place sucks, and I can't talk to anyone, everyone doesn't help. I'm going to leave, and I'm going to go to this rescue service. [00:45:52] Speaker B: Like, they'll have their stuff there, too. Yeah. [00:45:55] Speaker A: And their instincts can be like, okay, then go. Like, whatever. Like, they have no. There's no emotional connection between you guys because you're constantly threatening to leave. There's no emotional safety. It's that thing of, like. Like, just if you walk in, you say, hey, I know that we're a little bit of a island of misfit toy sometimes, and we have our problems, but, like, this is my family. This is my team. This is where I am, and I'm committed to making this better. And I'm committed to being a better partner to you and helping be, you know, being the best person I can be on this group. If you come to work every day with that, they're going to naturally as a human mirror that. And that's how you build culture. You don't build culture by walking in and, like, putting a poster board up and being like, everybody washed a truck on Thursdays. Like, you're gonna walk in and say, like. Like, I care about you, you care about me. We're not perfect. No one is. But this is where we are, and let's do this together. [00:46:42] Speaker B: Yeah. And at the end of the day, we're here to show up for our patients anyway. [00:46:45] Speaker A: So, yes, as my clinical coordinator says, the patient is at the center of everything we do. [00:46:49] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:46:50] Speaker A: Which is key. Well, thanks, Courtney. I appreciate it. Thanks for interviewing me and leading the charge on that. We'll get this up and posted for all those folks who want to listen to it. And if you guys have any questions, there's a million resources online. Definitely reach out to Courtney. She'll give you direction on where to. To point your attention. But other than that, stay safe out there and have a pleasant St. Patrick's Day. Make good choices.