Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:09] Speaker B: Welcome back to another episode of the Code 321 podcast. Welcome back to season five, an exciting fifth year of the Code 321 podcast. I want to thank all the listeners for sticking with me and joining me on this winding road and journey of all these interviews that we've had and for those of you that have been here since the beginning, I have some very exciting news that we are going to have a regular occurring co host that's going to be joining me as much as possible and I'd like Welcome to the show, Prescott. Welcome to the show, Nick.
[00:00:38] Speaker A: Thanks so much for having me.
[00:00:39] Speaker B: I can't tell you how excited I am to have you with us. And for those listeners that forgot that you are a previous guest on the show, do you mind just sharing a little bit about your background? Tell the folks just a little bit about where you came from and maybe why you finally agreed to my incessant begging to join me as my co host?
[00:00:56] Speaker A: Yeah, sure, sure. So then appearing on the 321 podcast a couple of times, fortunate enough to have my own little podcast and go on the Life Fire Layout podcast of which you've been a guest. Awesome adventure there. Professionally. I've been a firefighter for about 20 years now, worked for the Wilson Fire Department for a bunch of years until very recently took the leap into chiefdom and I'm the chief of the Hinesburg Fire Department now, which is extremely exciting. Huge venture. Which is why any listeners my podcast have not heard anything for some time. You'll notice that correlates almost directly with when I accepted the chief's position here.
So a lot of learning drinking from the firehose as they say. But I can't tell you how exciting it is to be back because anyone who's ever done anything creative like this, like a podcast or anything artsy at all knows that creative outlets like this are so critical and I can't even stress how much that has been a missing piece in my life. And so when you did beat down the door and say let's do this, the timing could not have been any better. So I'm very stoked for the future.
[00:02:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's going to be a really interesting dynamic because we have similar backgrounds with the exception that you went full bore, full enchilada, became the fire chief and I left the fire service altogether. So I think we'll be able to find some common ground and have some good discussion. I think what we wanted to just touch on today is this idea of Morale, because it's something that you and I have been talking about for at least 15 years. And I think our viewpoints have waxed and waned in different areas about how we think about it. And I would love to hear some of your perspective on, you know, maybe some things you've noticed over the years, especially in your new role. I mean, you got thrust into a new department and you are now in charge of your own firehouse, your own town fire department, you know, and I think that's. That's a big step forward. And so I guess I would start with, you know, when you were coming up as a young firefighter, what were some things that you noticed that really pumped you up and really got the morale going?
[00:02:55] Speaker A: I would say any type of change.
And often I'll use that broad brushstroke term of change, because sometimes the change wasn't always initially positive, but it was something different.
Anything that new apparatus, new uniforms, some of the bigger items as a line firefighter that were change oriented were really often exciting. And so that got everyone pumped up. I remember distinctly when we got the ambulance service started in Williston, that just brought a ton of a boost in morale. People were just so stoked to be a part of something new and exciting, especially from the ground up approach.
So back then, those were things that really got me pumped up, got me fired up, and then I still am seeing that just from a very different perspective. Now as chief, I am desperate. I've got a bunch of little bullet point line items that I cannot wait to try to roll out. Recognizing that those things pumped me up as a line firefighter, and I think that I'm seeing echoes of that here. Any little changes that we have made or even hints towards bigger changes, you know, down the road, a new firehouse, we just took delivery last year of a mini pumper. Like all of those things are steps in the right direction.
But there's a lot of other subtle aspects of morale that as chief, I have. I now have, like, direct control over, which I think is the most exciting thing for me is where before I would say, man, it'd be awfully nice if insert thing to improve morale could occur.
Now when I say that I'm the one that fills in that blank, and the most important takeaway that I have had there is, yes, I am the one who fills in the blank.
But I also want to be very open to when people try to fill in that blank for me, right? I want to be open to, like, grab the notepad out, okay, you have Some ideas, let me hear them. If they're fiscally responsible, if I have the money or if I have the ability, you know, let's make something happen.
[00:05:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that must be a fascinating transition for you to go from kind of this always being a bridesmaid to all of a sudden now like, you're the guy, you know, and it's like the kind of buck stops with you. And I wonder what type of mentality shift you had, you know, spending. I remember sitting around the kitchen table when we were both firefighters talking about how we would conquer the world and fix all the problems. And that's pretty common in most firehouses and EMS agencies. But what was it like when you walked on the other side of that doorway and all of a sudden you're like, oh, I guess it's me now?
[00:05:39] Speaker A: It was a little bit bigger of a shock. It's almost weird saying this. It was a bigger shock than I expected because in my sort of dream world, I was like, oh, yeah, this is great. I can do this. I know everything about this, to some degree at least enough be dangerous.
And then I think the. The big change that I'm alluding to that, that really shook me was when I realized that I could pull the trigger on a decision and it was done. Like, if I wanted to do something related to our uniforms or our apparatus or our station, like big changes the town, the town manager, there is a level of autonomy here that unless it's painting the building pink or, you know, removing the red lights from the trucks, whatever, you know, they would let me do it. And so for me, I needed to take my own internal step back and recognize that without as many checks and balances, and they exist even now, I have a town manager who is very savvy, you know, financially making sure I'm not, you know, frivolously spending money. But the bigger thing for me is recognizing that I may want to, especially in the world of morale, I may want to take the five items, the top five items on my list, and just do, do, do right away. But we have half a year left, half a fiscal year left. And that was my big aha moment, is recognizing that I could do all five of those morale related items, but if something crops up three months in or three months left of the fiscal, we may not be able to do that. And that could be a missed opportunity. Whereas if I'm able to. And again, this is the biggest change is the fiscal mindset that the fire chief has to have in recognizing that, you know, sure, I could do all of these things, but what if something is going to crop up down the road that could potentially be better? I have to always keep some of that in mind.
[00:07:39] Speaker B: Yeah, you got to play the long game, which is unfortunate. And I can't help but think about all the times that you and I feel like we had a great idea and for whatever reason, the command, staff, chiefs, lieutenants, whatever, city manager said no. And it was so frustrating. And I wonder, have you found yourself in a situation where you've had to say no to someone who feels that they have a good idea? And how did you do it differently? If anyway, did someone come into you and pitch you an idea and you had to say no, and now you're like, oh, man, I'm on the other side of the table and how do I do this and still maintain that good relationship? Have you found yourself having to do that?
[00:08:16] Speaker A: Fortunately, not as much yet. But the few instances that I have, because it happens far more regularly than I think people realize. You know, I have 35 people that I work with, and out of those 35 people, at any given moment, someone could cruise through the door and it could be a large idea, small idea, you know, what have you to them. It's a very important, very large idea for sure. So the biggest thing that I have sort of tried to do that I didn't always feel happened to me was acknowledge them beyond measure. Like, over and over again, say, like, this actually is a fantastic idea.
We can't do it right now. And here's why. Like, I try to do my very best to be transparent in my newness to the job and recognizing and saying, listen, with me being not even a full six months on this job, I don't want to pull the trigger on a ton of big things simply because I don't know the lay of the land. Give me 12 months, let me get a year under my belt where I have driven these trucks, ridden in these trucks, met these people, everyone from not just the townspeople, but all of the firefighters, you know, worked with them for, for a few months, seen EMS calls, seen fire calls. Right. Once I actually get a true lay of the land, then I can start to say, okay, you know, you want to totally change the appearance of these apparatus, and now I see why, or whatever the reasoning might be. But I think the thing that initially shook me was I think people initially were trying to use my newness to perhaps get some things done.
[00:10:00] Speaker B: Babysitter mentality.
[00:10:01] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:10:03] Speaker B: Watch TV till 11 o'clock every night.
[00:10:06] Speaker A: And the hilarious Thing is, right, they are good ideas.
[00:10:09] Speaker B: Ideas, yeah.
[00:10:10] Speaker A: Everyone who has come to me with an idea, they are actually great ideas. And I have them written down. It's more recognizing that until I feel comfortable with the lay of the land, the whole trust but verify, I absolutely have to see that over a period of time. And then we can start to say, all right, cool. These changes will actually make impact on morale, not a detrimental impact on service. And we have the money to do it. So then we pull the trigger.
[00:10:36] Speaker B: Yeah, no, that's. That's great with timing. I think something that just popped in my head about this is I just had a meeting recently with a guy, and he was talking about sales, and he was talking about looking for the implicit need, not the explicit need. And I was thinking about this as you were talking, like, you know, if I were in your position, I bet you a lot of those employees have the implicit need that they want to make things better. And it's not the explicit need is, hey, I want to get blue plates. But at the end of the day, like, you know, you're the type of person where you have enough of that great perspective taking that you can probably recognize and just totally, like, defuse someone by saying, I see a young person that's really excited about making change. You look like you're really into change. You want to make things better. Is that what you want to do? And they're like, yes, I do. And you're like, hey, how about we put the blue plates on the shelf for a minute and we tackle this thing? And like, recognizing that the true reason they're in your office is because they want to be part. They want their values to match the organizational values. They want to improve the organization, they want to improve the workflow, make their coworkers and themselves happy and proud to come to work. And I think there's probably 15 things on your whiteboard you could hand them today that are ready to go. And I think, you know, that's like that. You know, management201 is seeing behind the ask, what's. Why? Why are they asking? You know, I think that's a fascinating concept.
[00:11:58] Speaker A: Well, and I think the thing, the most impressive thing that I have realized, and I'm saying as if I realize that just it's being chief, but the perspective as a chief officer now has thrown a lot into sharperly for me, recognizing that need for these people and saying, okay, I can't, you know, this particular item I'm not going to be able to do for any whatever reason, letting Making very clear why right now I can't. But then recognizing the fact that the creation of an SOG or you know, a task that is very similarly aligned, you know, somebody wants to totally change the uniforms. No, let's not totally change the uniforms. But I do need help with this, you know, proportion of uniforms. Would you be willing to do that? They are now invested even more, more than they were. It's aligned with what they had just come to me about. So they know that it's still potentially on the table. And I know that's not going to disappear. Like their ask will come back in 12 months or you know, two years or whatever it is. Right, it's gonna come back. But if we can at least satiate them for the time being, because it's not possible right now, not only do they remain invested, so they don't feel, as I did a few times, sort of punted away. When I felt like that as a line firefighter, the only thing that would draw me back, I would often be like dejected, like o, this place sucks.
What would bring me back is the next exciting thing and it would be the leader of that organization, either the low level, like a lieutenant or the captain or sometimes maybe even the chief would then say, hey, I need your help with this. And then all of a sudden it was like, oh, maybe this place doesn't suck. And then next thing we've got people helping. In my case now I cannot do it all. And even the, you know, the full time firefighters that I work with, there's, there's only two of them, you know, so they can't do it all either. So having the call staff, firefighters and EMS providers put forth effort and say, yeah, I, I like this, I want to help. The coolest thing I did, it's not my own idea by any stretch of the imagination, but one on ones with all my staff and I wish I had captured 100% of them, but I captured anyone who wanted to. Right? They had the ability to, I, you know, pinged them a few times, whatnot, and out of that I have copious notes of things that make them tick. All right. I asked very few questions, it was conversational. And the most amazing thing that came of that was I would like to, and Frank Viscuso calls it start, stop, continue, you know, what do you think the organization should start doing that we're not doing? What should we stop doing that we are currently doing? What should we continue doing that seems to be cruising and going well kind of thing. I in essence did A version of that in the one on one.
And the answer is, it's great. I still have them compiled by each of their names. And frankly, as I have time, it's being able to tap in and say, oh, you want to help with the cadet program? Oh, you want to help with a uniform policy? Let's tap in these people to not just push the needle forward on things that really would benefit this department, but keep these people invested, keep them interested, thirsty for more.
[00:15:22] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's like the jocko willink. Like you put someone in charge because now, you know, rather than you writing every policy and sending it down the line in an email, you have your staff members, you know, like that was one thing, you know, that they did really well in Burlington is like the sogs that were written about specific things were written by people good at those things. You know, like radio sogs were written by the radio guys. Ice, like our high rise sog was written by Mike Curtin, who loves high rises. Right. Those types of things were done by people who had a passion for it. Because if you can put someone who has a passion for something in charge of that thing, it'll come out a thousand times better than anyone else would be able to do it. And it's still coming from you. I've said this on probably half of my episodes at least once. The conductor doesn't need to know how to play first chair violin. They just need to know how to support the violinist and let them know when it's their time to play the solo. That is the best sounding orchestra. Can you imagine going and seeing an orchestra where the conductor runs around and tries to play all the instruments? It would sound terrible, right? Be a waste of money. And I think that's a great way to look at it is like look at the implicit need of the person or the implicit interest of the person. Like, you look like you want to be involved. And I've said this to my management teams in everywhere I've ever worked. I said you could, you could tell me to reorganize your pencil drawer and I'll be thrilled. I'll tell. I'll put it in order with the most used to least use, with the most durable, least durable. And you know, ones from Europe on the left, ones from America on the right. I don't care. It's that I want to be part of the team. The easiest way to kill my morale is to tell me that you're all set and you'll let me know when you need something that's Like I'm like, well, I'm just going to go. It's like sitting on the bench on a, on a pro sports team. You're only going to do that for so long.
[00:17:05] Speaker A: And the reality of it is looping people that. So I often get accused, and this is rightfully so, of giving too much information.
I actually said to my deputy chief today that I've learned a big lesson that less is often more.
But in that same vein, although less actually is more in some cases, if I am able to learn and toe that line of letting these people know in this organization what is going on in this office. So it's not some like cloak situation man behind the curtain, but also involving them in that situation. Like not only like, hey, here's what's happening in the chief's office, but not only here's what's happening, but I also need help being vulnerable and saying, like, I have these projects, I really would like them to get done. Is there any interest? Can I, you know, anyone who wants to do this? Because that moment of vulnerability may yield someone who I don't yet know what their interest is. Maybe I didn't catch them on a one on one or maybe they're just, just too shy or you know, haven't had the impetus to say, raise my hand, come into the chief's office and say, yeah, I'm interested in this X, Y or Z thing. But if I am able to say like I have these projects, I'd really like to push them forward, but I need people's help doing that. I will tell you in the other place that I worked that happened a few times where the answer was a big old no, like nobody wanted to help out, nobody pitched in. And that's okay too. Yeah, I'd rather have somebody truly say like versus getting forced into doing it and then just doing a terrible job saying, no, I'm just not interested. But the opposite is true here that I've started to find is that when I do have that moment of vulnerability and say, hey, I need some help with this, there are folks that say, oh sure, I'll give that a whirl. Let me see how this goes.
[00:18:56] Speaker B: Yeah, and also just recognizing that people may be able to contribute a different level of help. So maybe to them, helping is you giving them some more direction or some more support or assigning them a mentor of someone who else has done it previously and say, hey, John Smith, you know, you've been a lieutenant for a long time. This guy's interested in becoming a lieutenant. You know, can you help him write a policy? Because that's going to be part of his role if he wants to do that, you know, and like, pairing up those mentorships I think is really key, which makes a ton of sense. And yeah, that's a smart way to look at it. I think involving people is key. I also think it's really important, at least from my perspective, that when you do involve someone, you're really clear about the expectations that you expect from them and that you give them a clear timeline about when it's expected to be done. Because in my experience, the times where I see that strategy go awry is if someone works really hard on something and delivers it to their manager and their manager goes, yeah, we're not going to do this. It doesn't make any sense. I don't like this. And that's a very simple problem. That is that the management team and the person doing the legwork didn't have clear expectations, they didn't have a shared mental model, right? And then the other one is timeline, right? If. If you need a document in two weeks and you say, hey, can you work on this when you get a chance? And two weeks later they didn't give you anything, and then you yell at them for not doing anything, that's not fair to them because have all the information. So in my mind, when you delegate, as long as you have shared mental model with clear expectations and a defined timeline, it's nothing but success for everybody.
[00:20:25] Speaker A: So one of the things that I'm trying to do in that same vein is, you know, the agency I just worked for commissioned, they're doing a big paid study on strategic plan, right? Community driven. You know what, it's going to be great for them. They have the resources to be able to do that.
We don't here, we don't have that. So instead the ability to say, what do we have? Well, we have some really competent people who have some great ideas. So getting them together with the specific intent of coming up with that shared mental model and coming up with those timelines, like, sure, I've got a bunch of ideas written down on my dry erase board.
They may not have those same ideas or they may have different ideas. They may take my idea and make it 10 times better. But then being able to have that, I love the big sticky notes, the massive, like poster board sticky notes, mind mapping. I can't think of a better office than you see in all these CSI movies and stuff where, like, it's just.
[00:21:25] Speaker B: A clear whiteboard or Something where you.
[00:21:27] Speaker A: Can just draw everywhere. Right. The reason I love that is because it's mind mapping together. So if we can put ideas down, you know, obviously, I know. And this is where the less is more thing comes in. I know if I invite all 35 members of this department to that mind map meeting, we'd get. It would be oversaturated, and honestly, it probably would be more of a detriment than, you know, a positive thing. Whereas if we are able to invite a handful of folks from a broad smattering fire and EMS providers, maybe even some representation from the town, you know, similar to what this paid study in the other place is going to do, but on a much microcosm level that would continue with that shared mental model that you just said. It involves all the right people and it makes it very, you know, overtly. Like.
Like I said, I might have a bullet point here. Someone else is going to come up with a better version of that. Let's hash that out, talk it out. So when we roll it out, it's, you know, not Prescott's idea, which, by the way, I want to hit on super quick. That is another thing, as a chief officer, a newly minted five bugle. Right. That is the whole, give me something to do, tell me how to do it, but then just get out of my way.
[00:22:43] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:22:43] Speaker A: Right. I cannot stress to you how much initially. And again, I'm still a baby chief here, but initially I had this weird thing occur where I was like, oh, my God, I need my hands in everything, because I'm new and I need to, you know, they need to see me.
[00:22:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:00] Speaker A: And. And hear me. And. And then I don't know what light switch got flicked, but it was like, no. No, they. No, they don't.
[00:23:08] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, they're okay.
[00:23:11] Speaker A: The world absolutely will continue to turn without me. And. And to that point, yes, there's a few things, you know, I. I'll give this quick example, because I'll tell you right now, I love training. I love. I would love nothing more than to do training all day, every day. Right. One of the things that was very difficult for me as a chief was letting go of the fact that I no longer create the training calendar. I no longer am, like, super intricately involved with every aspect of training.
But where I found this beautiful line of. I still want just a quick gander at that training calendar before it goes out, simply to look and say this inevitably. Right. This is awesome. You guys did a great job. Move on. Right. Keep. Keep doing this kind of thing. And occasionally, if something crops up, hey, you know, it would be really good to include.
Can we include this next month? Sure. Great. Little tiny bit of a pivot turn, but nothing major. And at the end of the day, that still makes me, as a chief, feel like I have some involvement in something I love and, you know, want to retain a part of, but it. I'm not getting in their way.
[00:24:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:22] Speaker A: And that is truly, like, anyone who's listening, I hope this is resonating with some people. And frankly, if you're a chief officer, I, you know, you've probably known this a heck of a lot longer than I have. But the whole getting out of people's way thing, it will happen again and again for me where I have to remind myself of that or people will hopefully politely remind me of that, too. Like, the world will continue to turn. Prescott. Yeah, you just need to make sure, you know, a few pivots here, there at your discretion, but then you need to let us do our job.
[00:24:49] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. And that's like, if you open any firefighter, one textbook that's. That's on there in, like, the first 10 pages, where orders are the most specific at the lowest level and get less specific and more objective as you go up. It's like, you go to a fire, the fire chief's going to say, put the fire out and rescue the people, dude. Do your thing. And then, you know, the captain's going to be like, you know, let's search the third floor. And then the lieutenant's going to say, nick, I want you to force that door. And then I choose what tool I use. But if the fire chief shows up and says, nick, why don't you grab a halligan? I want you to take the ads in and you're going to stick it. I'm going to be like, excuse me, are you lost, Chief? You know, like, so I think reminding that that can be applied in any organization. Right. You know, the. The captain is just making sure we don't hit any icebergs. They don't need to pay attention to how much coal is going in the steam engine or anything like that. And I think that that's easily lost. I will tell you two things that were done by Steve Locke, and I can. I can say this because he was a great chief, and I really liked working for him. Two things he did that I never saw any other chief do in any other job I ever had that I loved. 1. Every Monday, he would send out a command update. So when they had their Closed door meeting with all the uppity ups and they did all their thing. Every, every Monday, he would send out this email that was like, hey, here are the big ticket items we're working on. Here's where they sit, and here are any problems we've encountered here, any solutions we've dealt. Just so people kind of had an idea of what's moving forward, what is getting hung up and hey, we're looking for help in this area. That was one thing he did. I really loved it. Made me feel like I was part of the team and that I wasn't just like a worker bee, that I was actually part of an organization. And the other thing is, from time to time, whether it was a union meeting, a shift meeting, a fire department meeting, or even just our station house, he would come by every so often and he would just, he would literally sit on the counter and say, what's up? Tell me what the problems are. Like, just let me have it. And I think what he was trying to do is combat this term that they use in the corporate world called CEO disease. I think I've told you about this before, which is basically as information travels up the chain of command, it gets buffed every time it jumps a level. So I might sit here and say, this is the stupidest uniform I've ever seen in my entire life. And then my lieutenant walks in and said, I don't really like these uniforms. And then he tells his captain, some of the guys aren't as thrilled as they could be with the uniforms. And by the time you hear it, they're like, well, you know, they're good uniforms, right? So it gets buffed every level. It goes up to the point where you don't actually hear that your guys hate their uniform. And it causes this divide. And so having a manager like I have now in my current job and, you know, a fire chief like that in my past, who could just take the heat for a second for the sake of truly understanding where I'm at so that we can have an honest conversation about where to move forward without it getting personal or defensive or emotionally charged. I can't tell you how much of a relief that was.
[00:27:45] Speaker A: So the other thing I look at, right, so I'm. We're a single firehouse. 35, folks, is not a ton in the scheme of things. Two full timers, the, you know, the third, whatever. So what I'm getting at is a lot of people claim they have an open door policy, and I think that's this cop out term of like, oh, the door is actually physically open.
[00:28:08] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:09] Speaker A: And that's. That's great.
[00:28:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:11] Speaker A: But is your position and is. Are the things you are saying and doing, inviting the meaning behind that? I have an open door policy because the meaning behind that is I want people to come through that open door, sit down and say, chief, I have an idea, or I have a problem and feel comfortable doing so without reproach. Like, they know that I'm not going to bite their head off. Even if they say, you know, chief, you know, this uniform is atrocious. It really. And I know you just spent big bucks on it, but it's atrocious. Like, I, as the fire chief need to be able to swallow my pride and look at it from their perspective and then, you know, work through that on my own accord. But what I'm getting at is that open door, like, people need to actually have that. Being able to sit on the corner of the table, go out and enjoy lunch with the troops, sit down for 15 minutes off your phone without a magazine in your hand and just sort of eat and talk. And maybe you don't actually say a word. Right. I'm a big talker, so for me to not say a word is a big deal. But I have to remember that, because guess what? Where there is silence, one of two things going to occur. Either they don't want to talk and that's fine, and they won't, or the silence will be filled and they might ask a question. They might bring something up. Hey, just while you're here, I've been meaning to catch you. Right. That is the definition of that open door policy. Or it doesn't have to be in your office, per se day. It's that level of comfort to have your people feel like they can approach you and bring some stuff up, even if it's a little hairy.
[00:29:50] Speaker B: Yeah. And I've started this new active process that we talked about in the pre show, about when I have a disagreement with someone or when a manager or supervisor tells me something that I strongly disagree with and I feel my emotional Yosemite building up. I take a second and I transition it into a series of questioning. I pretend like I'm a homicide detective or something and I need to drill down to the root cause. And so I was thinking of, like, if I was a fire chief and someone came into my office and said they hated the uniforms I just made. It's really an opportunity. Like, if you think of it that way, if you can work through the lizard brain piece and think about the opportunity. That's fascinating. It's fascinating that you put time and energy into something and someone that works for you hates it. Like, to me, I'm like, why do you hate it? I'm fascinated by. And not in a condescending, patronizing way, but seriously, tell me what you hate about it. And sometimes you dig into that and it's little things like, I am not the same size as the people that I work with, and this uniform does not fit me well. And it says, huh. We had a huge debate when I was in my last apartment because we weren't buying female cut pants.
Like, I've never worn female cut pants. I have no idea what the difference is. But they were complaints from young females who joined the fire department that their pants didn't fit correctly because female pants are shaped differently than male pants. They make a 5, 11 female pant. It is the same color, has the same pockets, it's the same length. It matches the same uniform. And we made that change and it was like, you would have thought that we had given them all like $10,000 a year raises, those little things of, like, all of our people in charge of uniforms were men and didn't really think about that until someone brought it up. And it took a lot of courage for, like, a young new female firefighter to say, these are not the correct uniform pants for me. And now that's a standard issue item. That's an opportunity for the next females that come in to have the right pant. And it's like, those things, if you, instead of yielding to our old school firefighter lizard brains that say, shut up. And, you know, keep your mouth shut until you've been here long enough to tell me what you think and say, huh? Why are they so unhappy? What? Where is this coming from? And taking that, like, inquisitive approach is so much more effective. And I've actually been having a lot of success doing that. And I've been happier on the other end because then I don't blow up and feel bad about myself. I actually bond with the person.
[00:32:21] Speaker A: That makes a ton of sense, Nick. And not only do I love that approach, I, again, pretty sure we had that. My approach is trying to think it from their perspective. So very similar. Just really stopping and saying, what is the. Especially if people get really amped up. Why are they so amped up? What is happening in their life right now? Because guess what? We don't know. There is so much. This is a five minute conversation that they just had with me that may have Been building for five years. Right. Who knows what is going on at that particular moment in their life. The other thing that I love about that Nick and the uniform piece there, the female versus male uniform and whatnot.
The ability again, now with me as fire chief, I have this golden opportunity to not be mired in the 200 years of tradition unimpeded by progress. I have. This is where I can't tell you. When I made captain at the other place, it was great because I thought I could make impactful change, and I think I did here or there. But now as a fire chief like, you really, truly have the ability to make that impactful change and involve the people in doing that. So the best place for that is recognizing that, you know, something like a uniform change, it. Can it be done? Yes. Right? You just said it. Right. Is it the same basic uniform? Is that available? Is it going to make an impact on the service in a negative way? No. Then what is the hold up? Why are we right? Is there a fiscal component? Sure, there always is. But is. Is. Is that fiscal component unsurmountable? No, it. Absolutely, we can. We can get over that. Then do it. Because at the end of the day, and I've had some good conversations about this, it's not all about making sure that the Morale is always 100 good, because it will not always be 100 good. It is, on the other hand, about always wanting to understand your people and recognizing at the end of the day, they are not dollars and cents, they're human beings. And although I see dollars and cents every darn day on my screen, because that is a huge component of my job, the second I forget that people are people and not dollars and cents is the second I need to leave this job.
[00:34:42] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. It's the concept of attunement. I've been reading a lot about that recently, which is like being in touch with the climate that's around you, you know, and making sure that people feel heard and understand and supported. And I just had a really good conversation with one of our per diem, who's also a dart, was a DART flight nurse for a long time. And we had this conversation about, like, there are going to be things that have to happen for the organization that you do not like that are uncomfortable and inconvenient and make you irritated and upset. Your manager telling you to not be upset about those things and do those things sometimes doesn't decompress you. But one of the things she was telling me about is like just going to her staff and saying something simple like, this is gonna suck. You're not gonna like it. I will be doing it with you. We will get through this together. This is the way it is right now, and I'm sorry about that, but let's handle it because we're professionals. Like, that is a very different message than. You guys need to change your attitude because, you know, you're upset about stuff that you should be lucky to work. Like, all those pieces of it. Just saying, I know it sucks, but we're gonna do it because we're professionals. This is the Heinzburg Fire Department. We're gonna take care of business like we always do, and we're gonna do it like gentlemen, right? Is that what he always used to say? It's like. And we're gonna do it like gentlemen. We're gonna take care of business.
Going to take care of business and do it because it's our job, not because, you know, every single thing is, you know, sunshine and Rosies every time.
[00:36:02] Speaker A: And I'm going to tell you, and without getting into a ton of detail, because just. Just. I don't need to, but what I'll tell you is that exact situation has actually occurred a number of times in my very short tenure here. And a couple of times very clearly in my brain, I, as a new fire chief was like, oh, my God, it's coming down. Like, I am about to have to drop a bomb on these firefighters and EMS providers. You like, ho.
[00:36:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:28] Speaker A: And the most amazing thing happened both times, which is I approached it at exactly that level of like, wow, friends, let's. You know, it came out in a letter form because I couldn't get everyone in the department together to be it in person. Followed up with in person at training. But, like, letter came out some big changes, not the best things.
And they rallied. Yeah, they rallied. They rallied for themselves. They rallied around the department and. And ultimately that showed me their true character. Couldn't be any prouder. More. More proud of. Of these men and women that I work with now. Because it was like, it could have revolted, it could have gone the exact opposite way, but it didn't. And it's. Because at the end of the day, I think they realize, you know, know, coming at it from that perspective of like, I will absolutely be doing this with you, it will suck. But there is an end. It's hard to see right now, right? The light is definitely at a very. The end of a very long tunnel. But at the end of the day, the. The coolest thing about it is coming at it from that humble perspective and doing it with them and being very serious about that. It's not lip service. This is like, you know, I love, you know, chief locks, you know, command updates there. Because the reality of it is, especially when you give folks really bad news like that, a constant stream, more or less, of updates, like, hey, here's where we're at with this is a really awesome way to say, like, we're still in this together. It may not seem, you know, the. The light at the end of the tunnel is getting closer, but, you know, batten down the hatches because we're still in it.
[00:38:15] Speaker B: And it also holds everyone accountable. They. They want to see progression. All the chiefs want to see progression. The mayor wants to see progression as I want to see progression. And there's something just a little bit different about putting out updates like that. Because now at the kitchen table, I can be like, hey, Chief Nadu, I was curious why the trucks don't have snow tires yet, because I noticed the last three command updates we had talked about snow tires. Like, it's just a little extra check and balance. And honestly, if you're a good chief and you're in the right headspace, you might say, like, that's a really good point that needs to go to the top of my list. Let's take care of our old business before we start our new business. And so I think it's nice to kind of have everyone on the same page. And also, like you said in the beginning of the podcast, just to wrap it up here, like, any change improves morale, any forward progress, because it shows there's growth and change and stuff like that.
The biggest detriment to morale is the lack of progress, and even worse than that is setbacks. So if you say something's going to happen and it doesn't happen, you have to. And that kind of speaks to what you're talking about with being a little bit methodical about how you choose when to do certain things to make sure that you don't have to roll out five new projects and then retract them because we ran out of money six months later. So ultimately, that long game is a better net progression of change than trying to rush everything in the beginning and then have to take it back at the end.
[00:39:37] Speaker A: Yeah, well, like you said, in order to wrap this show up here, I personally think that morale for me as a newly minted chief here is going to be one of the things that I need. I absolutely will keep it high up on my. My list. Because without the People to drive these fire trucks and get in this gear and provide the emergency medical services to the citizens. We're nothing.
[00:40:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:40:02] Speaker A: And. And keeping morale. Doing whatever I can do to engage these professionals and keep morale, you know, as high as is. Is possible, is really, you know, one of the things that I am learning is one of my top chiefly responsibilities. Abilities.
[00:40:18] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's really important to remember, too, to make sure you have someone that you trust that can give you that feedback when you're feeling a little bit deaf to it in the echo chamber. And I know where I came from, a lot of times it was like a senior firefighter role. And I know in some other flight programs, it's the, you know, the chief flight nurse, the chief flight paramedic. That individual has just a little extra teeth on them where they can come into your office and shut the door and say, chief NATO, you done messed up, Aaron. This is not the way. And that has to mean something. You know, I understand not taking that from every employee, every second, on every little item, but there's gotta be somebody, whether it's your deputy or your senior firefighter on your company or your, you know, chief of operations, someone that you know and trust. It doesn't even need to be in the same organization. It can be someone else and just say, hey, man, you know, that's you going the wrong way. And I think it's important because sometimes we can see the forest through the trees. And I expect that you or Dave or Whitney or Eddie or any of those guys that I trust that they will tell me if I'm out in left field, because I don't want to be in left field. I want to be right in the middle. I want to be shortstop. I always want to be shortstop. I'm never going to go to left field. And I think it's important that you have somebody there to remind you which direction is north.
[00:41:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And at the end of the day, having that humility, I can't stress this enough because I've had to eat so much humble pie already in my career. And even here now in Hansberg, being able to recognize that whether you self realize or whether you have that confidential, you know, person who is able to give you a little pivot and say, things are wrong direction, bud, turn, turn, turn right. Recognize that and say in. Instead of going, you know, where everyone wants to go initially, no, I'm doing everything fine. This is perfect. Having that humility, say, okay, all right, let's. Let's let's see if we can, you know, it's not too late.
That's the worst part of the equation is if it was so far gone that even when you do turn that ship, it just, it's too late kind of thing. So having that, I'm hopeful. I have yourself, the folks you just mentioned, a number of folks even within the organization who I actually trust intrinsically. And I hope everyone listening either has that person or is able to identify that person and really don't necessarily waste for them to, you know, I, I would hope that if you have that person or people they would feel confident, you know, comfortable approaching you but don't necessarily wait. Right. Like you and I have really good heart to heart conversations. Just cell phone on the way home from work sometimes. I have a twin brother. We definitely have those conversations. And you know that echo chamber you were talking about, sometimes it does take a little reach out to say, hey, I'm about to pull the trigger on this or I did pull the trigger on this and it's not sitting as well as I had hoped. Hoped. What do you think? And then the best part about that is if the feedback is maybe not what you expected or potentially exactly what you expected. Being able to pivot.
[00:43:17] Speaker B: Yeah, 100 I think surrounding yourself with the right people, being transparent and at the end of the day, if you're a decent human and you're doing things for the right reasons, everyone else will see that and they'll, they'll go to the end of the earth for you. So I appreciate you joining me. We have some great guests lined up for season five. We will stay out at it once a month like always. If you have any other feedback, get a hold of me. Look @Precision Training USA.com and stay tuned for some more great episodes. Thank you, Prescott.
[00:43:44] Speaker A: Thanks, Nick.
