Lessons in Leadership III: Feedback

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Welcome back to another episode of the Code 320 podcast. Prescott is here with me today. And joining us, we have a very special guest. Steve Petta is here. Steve, welcome to the show. [00:00:17] Speaker C: Hey, thanks for having me. [00:00:19] Speaker B: Appreciate it. Thanks for bearing with us as we figure out how to get Prescott on the show from the great beyond the other side of Colchester. So Prescott, how are you doing over there? [00:00:29] Speaker A: Very well, now that I'm in. Thanks for troubleshooting this. [00:00:32] Speaker B: Yeah, no, absolutely. So today what I wanted to talk a little bit about is this idea of being ready to receive feedback. I know it's something that I have always struggled with and I continue to struggle with to this day. And I think, Steve, you bring a lot of really interesting insight about how we can prepare ourselves to receive feedback and how we can do this well in a way that's not going to pour gasoline on our relationships with our coworkers and our patients and our clients that we serve on a day to basis. But before we get into that, do you mind just sharing just a little bit about how did you get into the fire service? Ems, fire? And then how did you get where you are today? What did your journey look like? [00:01:09] Speaker C: Yeah, well, thanks. Definitely looking forward to this topic tonight. And as far as a quick rundown, I'll do my best. Got into the fire service in rural upstate New York. I actually used to work at a machine shop and my boss was one of the, he was an assistant chief. So my fire service career started with him when I was like, wow, he's going on a call. It sounds really cool. So I asked, hey, can I go with you on one of these? And he said, sure. And then I asked, hey, is there any way that could I do this? And he goes, yeah, not a problem. Why don't you just sign in? We've got another guy that's by the name of Steve and just here's our accountability system and just check in. And so that's how it started as I actually was known as Stephen Abbott for a while until I officially joined. So I was running calls before I even joined. I was 16 years old. So I went to a, back then it was called basic firefighter class. And the instructor said I was too young, but I was too stubborn, so I continued to attend. And finally he's like, you know, I'm going to go back and look at the rules. And he found out that, you know what, you're 16, but if your department allows you to, you can actually take this class and you can become an Interior firefighter. I said, oh, cool, I guess I'll keep going to these classes then. So I started in upstate New York, ended up getting my interior at 16 years old and yeah, ran with that department for a while, ended up going to college. I got my EMT when I was going to Clarkson, took the class with my roommate who's now an ER physician at Strong out in Rochester, New York. So upstate New York. Did a little time down in Prince George's county, probably like a little over a year before taking the job up here in Burlington. That was back in 2008. [00:02:54] Speaker B: There you go. [00:02:55] Speaker C: So that's the quick rundown. [00:02:56] Speaker B: Yeah. And here we are today. And so in your day to day job, as you've grown in the fire service, have you found yourself starting to encounter these situations where you yourself are receiving feedback in a wide variety of ways and then you know you're also responsible for giving some feedback. Would that be fair? [00:03:12] Speaker C: Yeah. So in my current job, I'm the deputy chief of administration for the fire department here in Burlington. And I like to say that I'm kind of the internal hr. [00:03:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:24] Speaker C: So I get accustomed to receiving lots of feedback. Whether people realize that that's what they're giving, I'm not sure. And then I also find myself in positions where I need to. But really what it's been is throughout my career, throughout my life, I've realized that there were a lot of times where I wasn't actually receptive to the feedback because I was looking for what was not true about what somebody was saying. And as a result I couldn't hear what they were saying that was true. And it just took me a lot longer to figure things out than it, than it could have. And I think that as a supervisor, whether that's a frontline supervisor, company officer, or a chief officer, is that in order to understand how to provide feedback, it's helpful to understand how to receive it. And I think that it's a really good place to start, is before you tell somebody else what to do is to have an understanding of what the expectation is that you have of the other person and how can you receive it. So that's kind of where it starts for me. [00:04:24] Speaker B: Yeah, I think there's this quote that jumps to mind, this whole idea of like, seek first to understand, then be understood. I think sometimes in my career, I know I've encountered a lot of situations where I've been an observer watching two superiors talk @ each other and not to each other. And I've been in conversations where I've realized after the fact, you know, hey, I wasn't even listening. I was just trying to focus on winning my point, you know? And Prescott, have you found yourself with your new position? Have you been encountering a lot of situations where you're starting to get feedback from your staff? And do you find yourself in that same boat thinking about whether you're ready to listen and making sure you're in the right headspace? [00:05:01] Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. And actually, I'll go so far as to say one of the challenges with coming into a new space is you want to hear. I want to hear everyone out. I want to listen to their stories and try to accept all of that feedb as they have now gotten comfortable with me to be able to provide that. But also a big thing that I want to hit on briefly is like the preconceived notions. Like, all right, whether I want to admit it or not, I walked into the place with preconceived notions about not just the department or the people or the fire trucks or whatever it is. Right? There's all the preconceived notions. I brought all that with me so subliminally as I was either in some cases trying to give feedback and definitely trying to receive it. My hardest thing has been to maybe not get rid of those so much as put those on the back burner, to actually truly be able to definitely receive and absolutely give the feedback. [00:06:02] Speaker B: Have you noticed that, Steve, folks coming into these conversations and bringing a lot of previous history into the receipt of that feedback to the point where sometimes the message that the person is receiving isn't what's heard? [00:06:15] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. It actually touches on an area that. So first is, yes, I do. But it's also from my experience, I learned most from having the self awareness of how I've shown up and where I've done that. So if I have that awareness, I can recognize it in me. I can often spot it in others and what's going on. And those are all the things that you're starting to touch on are what we call triggers. And they get in the way of us receiving feedback. And so there's like what Prescott was touching on is what we call TR Trigger. And the concepts that I'm sharing come out of a really good book that I'd recommend. It's thanks for the Feedback by Doug Stone and Sheila Heen. So Truth Trigger is one of those triggers that they talk about and then the two others, one of those is relational. So that's what's the Story about you and me and how we all know that if it's something that is coming from someone. Well, let's take anybody that has a significant other, your significant other can sometimes tell you something. And it's like in one ear, out the other, you get the same message, Right. Oh, Nick, you told me it. And I'm like, wow, that's the best thing I've ever heard, you know? And so that's where a relational trigger is there. And then there's an identity. I don't agree with what I'm hearing because it contradicts a belief about myself. [00:07:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:33] Speaker C: Or it points something out that I don't like. And so those things. Yeah, you can see in your. In myself. I see it. And then there's times where it becomes easier to point out where somebody is not staying curious. They get defensive. And that's one of the first things is the self awareness to go, wait a minute, I'm feeling defensive. I feel a need to talk and defend versus talk and be curious. And that goes back to what you were sharing. The quote by Covey about seeking first to understand and then be understood is how can I be curious? And if I do have to be a little bit defensive, I can get to that later. But let me find out first, which is. That's active listening piece. [00:08:13] Speaker B: Yeah, no, 100%. I'm thinking very specifically to times when I worked over in Burlington and there were times where I would walk into a superior's office, whether it was senior firefighter or lieutenant, captain, chief, whatever. And the minute that I walked through the threshold, before I even said a single thing, sometimes the feedback would be, what did I mess up? What's wrong? What problem is going on right now? And sometimes it was just me being like, hey, I just want to let you know dinner's ready. I'm literally just asking how your day's going. And I wanted to talk about. About your truck had nothing to do with that. And I wonder if you can share just a little bit about what is the process if you find yourself in an interaction like that? I mean, what would you do if you walked into someone's office and they go, oh, Steve, what did I miss? What's wrong? [00:08:59] Speaker C: What does that tell you? Yeah. So. Good question. Because I think you provide a good example. And here's the thing is they were giving you feedback. Yeah, right. They're saying there's something that you're doing that is a trigger for them. And then when I look at it relationally, there's a you and Me. And so it's not just what you need to change. It's also on their end. But you have no control over the other side. [00:09:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:21] Speaker C: You only have control over you. So sometimes it might be asking them or just pointing out, hey, you know, it sounds like when I show up in your office, you're automatically defensive. Would you mind sharing with me what it is that causes for you to feel that way or to have that experience when I walk through the door and you. So I think that when you learn to receive feedback, what it's really about is better being able to interact with the world around you and other people so you can be more effective. So they're going to tell you something that you might need to change so that they're more receptive, which will. You know, I think everybody wants to have influence. It's not saying you need to change, but it's that you might get a nugget. Look for what's true and what they're providing for feedback. Don't look for what's wrong. And you might figure you might hear something that, hey, I can adjust that. And what they're telling me is a way to be more effective. They might not know that, but that's what every moment is, an opportunity for learning. And that's the way I look at it. [00:10:18] Speaker B: Yeah, that's really smart. And Prescott, ever since I've known you, you basically had this career booster pack strapped to your back where you just power through the ranks. And you're now a fire chief. You've moved up from senior firefighter to officer to chief. Now, what strategies have you adopted over your career with difficult interactions? Have you found ways to communicate and receive feedback from sometimes people that maybe you don't have the best relationship with? [00:10:46] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And that's been arguably one of the hardest things in the leaps that I have made. So the hardest leap for me was to captain, because that was the first realm that I really had to start dealing with personnel issues on a very serious level. Below that, you can often just boost it up the chain. And so when I. That discovery for me, and sort of what Steve was alluding to there for me was needing to actually recognize what I had going in my own, you know, my own line of questioning before I even walked in the room, my own emotional intelligence, what position I was in. And then at the end of the day, the biggest learning lesson is what I'm about to say, which is, I need. I still do this. I need to hear the full story, and I need to hear it from the horse's mouth. Because going back to the preconceived notions, both my own notions and what I'm thinking about other people, I would go in with this, everything already written out, not only on paper, but in my head. This conversation was over before I even walked into it. And then I ask one question, all of a sudden I get an entirely different picture. And so now my approach is I walk in almost with a blank slate. Yeah, I have a notion to some degree whether this is a disciplinary meeting. Is it going to be, you know, do I need the documentation, you know what, that kind of stuff. But at the end of the day it's all about questioning. Because what comes from that line of questioning, especially if it's non accusatory questioning, just purely as Steve said, be curious. And if I go in being curious, then instantly both the person that I'm with and, and myself, we're both disarmed instantly, which leads to a much more productive conversation. [00:12:34] Speaker C: Prescott, I just want to say one of the things you mentioned was like, like emotional intelligence, I think, or something along those lines. And I never fully understood the value of that. I've, you know, kind of been on my own little journey here and have learned quite a bit. And one of the things is to recognize, and this is something I continue, it's like on a continuum of under, of increased understanding. But that to be able to acknowledge how somebody else is showing up in the conversation as well as myself. You talk about those situations, whether it's disciplinary and somebody's on the defensive already, is to be able to acknowledge that which actually will diffuse that situation a little bit or they might be more receptive as well. Which goes back to if I have the self awareness, if that's how I'm impacted now, I can validate their experience which will bring them down. So it's all about if I can learn how to receive the feedback, I'm much more effective at giving it as well. If that makes sense. [00:13:28] Speaker B: Sense, yeah, definitely. And I think one of the other things I really want to pick both your brains about is my journey specifically. I've always been a little bit of a very passionate person when it comes to my job and my career and what I believe is right. And it's just kind of how I'm wired and I've come to learn over the years that that's a fabric of my being and I need to acknowledge that and recognize it in myself so I can control it and deliver it in the right way, time and place. But it has not always been that way. There's been a lot of times where I find myself with these really powerfully charged emotions when I'm receiving feedback to the point where everything just kind of is like horse blinders. And I don't actually see the good things that are coming at me or the reasoning behind it. I just react emotionally with my lizard brain to like, what I think they're trying to say or what the narrative inside my head is saying about me. What would you say to folks that are wired like me, entering these opportunities for feedback where you find yourself starting to that wheel, starting to go like haywire and go out of control? What would you give as advice? [00:14:34] Speaker C: I've got some ideas on that. First is take a breath and work on the recognition that that's how you're feeling and that that's not likely the time that you should respond. So we'll go back to. You were referencing Covey earlier and out of his seven Habits of Highly Effective People, he talks about increasing the gap between the stimulus and the response. Now what I've discovered is in emergency services, we don't like having a gap between a stimulus and a response. We all to a certain extent, are impulsive and that's what makes us good at our job and sometimes not good at the relational piece because we have an emotional reaction and we're going to react based on it. And I think it's just, it's. It's a muscle that needs to get exercised. So work on starting with taking a breath. Have awareness. Don't respond until you're in a position to be able to intentionally respond, not reactively respond. And over time, if you work on that, you're going to start to shrink that time between that stimulus and. And the response and you'll exercise that muscle of intentionality. It doesn't come quickly, it takes a bit of time. But that's what I'd say. Slow it down. You're not on an emergency call most of the time when it comes to relationships, but relationships will come into play on those emergency calls. [00:15:58] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. And I think exactly what you said has been the only effective strategy I have found. I think putting work email on my phone is about the worst thing for my job that I've ever done because it's so easy to respond quickly and efficiently that sometimes I'll get a piece of feedback that I'll react to emotionally and the email will be typed and sent before I even have time to fully process what the other person said or why they said it to the point where this just happened to me maybe two weeks ago, I received a piece of feedback. I got frustrated. I sent an email that you tell yourself, oh, they won't be able to tell I'm frustrated, but everyone reads directly through that and sees you're frustrated. How you write it is how they read it a lot of the times. And so I actually felt guilt after sending that email back. And I called the person that I emailed because I know them really well and I have a good relationship with them. And luckily they're very calm and collected and have a great self awareness and self esteem. And I said, hey, listen, that was not how I intended that message to be sent. I apologize for that. And they were like, hey, thanks for calling me. I really appreciate that. Like, no big deal. I see why you're frustrated. And then we had this great conversation about why they did what they did and why I felt the way I felt. And we were able to work through it with no problems. But, you know, using the draft folder, those simple tricks that you read, you know, on LinkedIn or whatever, where it's like if you feel yourself creating an email that starts to, you know, run away on the train tracks, maybe throw that in a draft folder for 24 hours and then come back to it and see if you feel differently, I think is a really productive strategy. Prescott, have you found yourself as the chief, being put in situations where there's this extrinsic pressure for a response and you maybe aren't ready internally to give that response? And how do you handle that? [00:17:44] Speaker A: Yeah, so it happens more than I'd like to admit. And by that I mean every single day where. And you talk about that gap, Steve, where I want to provide an answer right away because I'm the chief now and I can do that, right? You know, like, no, I don't have to do that. And every day I am learning, as I've made many mistakes in this arena, I am learning that not responding right away, even giving myself an hour, which in the scheme of often the line of questioning that I get is not a long period of time, but it's enough that I can formulate my thoughts. I can go through and see if we have an SOG or an SOP on that. I can, you know, if anything, I can just take that breath you were talking about, because I can't tell you the number of times and this isn't their fault. But this morning, prime example, walk through the front door, I've got my lunch in one hand, my backpack slung over my shoulder, I'm not even through the front door and I've already got two questions on my plate. I know what I'm about to walk through. I see a bunch of cars in the parking lot. My days letting that stress and anxiety start to build and then having those two questions right out the box. It's a recipe for me giving just a shoot from the hip answer that I will either A, regret or B, might not even have all of the correct information just because I'm like, I want to get inside, I want to drop my stuff off, I want to start my day with a nice warm cup of coffee versus this. So yeah, sure, go ahead and book the firehouse for this event that I have no idea about or whatever. Right to that point. The one thing I have learned and the approach that I took this morning was if there is some low hanging fruit, you know, that I can answer and I feel confident doing so sort, that's no problem. But otherwise the easy answer is yeah, hey, I would love to, I'd love to answer you. Let me get back to you on that for just a second. Or hey, can I call you in an hour? If it's a phone call, can I, you know, I'm getting a lot better about just using the, you know what the thumbs up if somebody shoots me a text with a question, you know, anything like that where I can just simply identify like, I hear you, I'm acknowledging you and I'm going to answer you. But truly that transparency piece of not right now. And they understand. [00:20:09] Speaker C: Yep. I think that you, you bring up some good points and that's really like a whole other conversation that would be great for another day is about like boundaries and limits. Whether those are with yourself. Well, they really are with yourself, but kind of comes into that, exercising the, the impulsivity and control of it, if you're good. I want to go back to one of the things that Nick was talking about that I think plays right into this topic. And that was his example of how he felt that email. Right. That email is reactive and defensive. So this comes up in our conversation about how we receive feedback. Now you're going to find yourself, you know, like, I'm a supervisor. Prescott, you're a supervisor. We take that knowledge that we've learned about ourself and how we've received feedback and it comes into play in how we're going to give feedback. And so sometimes you're going to, you're going to find yourself in a situation where you're giving feedback and it might be you're evaluating somebody or their, you know, discipline is that they're human and you should expect that defensive reaction. And to validate. Like if I received that in the moment from you, Nick, it might be like, wow, Nick, it seems like you're really upset and angry about this piece of information, whatever it was, and that makes sense. Now, are you open to hearing some feedback about where that came from? I'm not saying it's going to be perfect, but to acknowledge where he's at in that moment and not take it personally is going to help both of us get through the moment and be able to move past it. Whereas what I've seen before is a subordinate gets defensive. The best defense is an offense. They start coming back at you and you're not expecting it. Now I'm gonna. Well, I gotta show you because I've got, you know, whatever more bugles or bars than you. Well, that. That doesn't do anything. So for me it's. I used to just bring it back to the issue. I had a recent interaction where a subordinate pointed out that I never really validated where what their feeling was. And they had a good point. I do need to bring it back to the issue, but I've always been black and white and I'm trying to learn that there's some gray I can validate and then bring it back to the issue. And I look at it, we're all parents and there's a saying about connect and then correct. Or if you read Jocko Willink, there's like connect and then redirect. It's the same thing. So I thought that that really kind of played into it beautifully of how you received it plays into how we end up giving feedback. [00:22:39] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think being in touch with the situation and recognizing, you know, with the other person, is it something that they need to say to you or is it something that they're looking for you to respond to it productively? Because there have definitely been times, you know, you and I ran a business together and we would have conversations with people who would fundamentally disagree with what we were telling them. And sometimes they were really frustrated by the situation and they just need to get it off their chest. Like, I'm frustrated about this. This person's annoying me. This is difficult. You don't do this, you are gone. Blah, blah, blah. All these things just pouring like a. Just like a blevy situation where everything's just exploding at once. And sometimes if you just let that off gas for a second and you just Say, hey, I'm hearing, you know, you sound really frustrated. You know, I'm really sorry you're feeling so frustrated. You know, like naming the emotion, I think sometimes can just remind them that you see them as a human being. Whereas if I were to sit there and try to pick apart every single bullet point that they just fired at me piece by piece and explain why they're feelings are invalid, that's going to be a lot less productive. And I wanted to, actually, since you're on the show, I wanted to remind you of a piece of feedback you actually gave me probably like four or five years ago that literally changed the way that I interact with my coworkers for the rest of my life. And it was so valuable. I remember I was on the ambulance and we were going through a lot of new employees, and because I was a paramedic, I was being stuck with a lot of paramedic students, a lot of AEMT students, a lot of new people, people who were still learning the job, still making big mistakes, some little mistakes. And every time I got someone where they're starting to get really good at their job, they would rotate them out and give me someone brand new. And this cycle was continuing where I was getting like employee after employee after employee. And what I realized is that they were utilizing me because they felt like I had something to offer these staff that other people maybe didn't have to offer. But I got really frustrated. And there were a couple times where I would get really irritated on calls that things weren't getting done the way that I expected them to be done, and I would correct them in the moment. And I started to get really frustrated to the point where, you know, if they were really struggling for an IV and they weren't getting an IV and it was, you know, it was a sick patient, I would just be like, all right, move. I'll do it. And I would just jump in and do it. And I remember you were the officer, I think, on the tower at the time, and I was on the ambulance and I came to you and I was like, steve, I'm really feeling frustrated. This is really bothering me. I'm just sick of people not doing their job right. And I'm just gonna take and do it all myself because I can't rely on anyone. And you gave me some feedback. You're like, what is the worst possible outcome that could have happened if that person, let's say, made a mistake and put the limb leads on backwards? Think of the worst possible situation, and then would that affect the continuity of care and would that disable these patients for the rest of their life? And I was like, well, no, because in five minutes they're going to get another ekg. And I could have caught it and done another one. Like, no, it's not really a big deal. And he's like, so why did you make this interpersonal relationship you have completely on fire with napalm over something that really, at the end of the day, doesn't necessarily matter? And I was like, you know what? I don't know. Why does everything feel like the end of the world to me? These little things that really don't matter, they have an IV on one side, and I'm freaking out about the fact that they don't have an IV on the other side. And I'm not going to give any medicines at that moment. There's no emergency. But I'm primed to feel like everything is like code three, racing red lights and sirens. Everything's the end of the world. And that was a really insightful piece of feedback and it changed the way that I work with my coworkers. [00:26:12] Speaker C: That's pretty cool. I remember that one. [00:26:16] Speaker B: That's good. Prescott, have you had a piece of feedback where it just hit you like a ton of bricks and you're like, man, that is me. And I am doing that, and now I will not do that in the future. Can you think of anything where you had those interactions with and they just gave you this deep right to the soul feedback? [00:26:38] Speaker A: Sure, sure. I mean, I think you had mentioned passion before, and I'm a fairly passionate guy myself. And before I had a chance to, I guess really before I promoted and thought of myself as anything but, like maybe an informal leader. And even at that, I was just like, I'm just a firefighter, you know, riding backwards, having a grand old think a ton about how my reactions affected people. And so what I would often do is little issues. I would fly off the handle. I had no emotional intelligence or very limited awareness of what that reaction would do to other people until I started seeing this trend of negativity. And I don't, you know, was I maybe the root cause of that negativity? No, but I absolutely perceverated that negativity by simply flying off the handle or just saying a bunch of things in a really boisterous, aggressive manner. Just, oh, this is. Everything's crap. Nothing is good around. Right. And the feedback that I received was. Could have very easily been disciplinary of some kind, but the officer pulled me aside and basically Pointed out that I was an informal leader. I didn't have Bugles. I didn't have, you know, but being an informal leader held a great deal of weight and taking that as seriously as little interactions that I have about small decisions like how we are taping the Halligan bar actually ripple. And so frankly, what that showed me was, and since then, it made me realize that no matter how small the interaction is, I might be at the kitchen table having lunch and someone makes a comment, you know, oh, yeah, this sandwich from such and such a restaurant is trash. Oh, yeah, I totally agree. The ripple effects of any of these conversations that we have in our firehouse, at the ambulance bay, wherever we are, they do make a big difference. And so for me now, how I've translated that is recognizing in any conversations I have that what I say matters and trying to make that positive and use that energy and passion that I just spoke about to build people up versus, in many cases, when I was a firefighter, inadvertently, I would be tearing it down. [00:29:08] Speaker C: Sounds like you got some good feedback, Prescott. You know, some pretty good officers. And the world, it kind of becomes the lens that we look at it through. And it sounded like that person kind of let you know that and reminded you of the influence that you can have if you're starting to look through it in a positive way. And it's easy to get stuck on that negativity you're talking about. Even the food example sounds like any firehouse usa. [00:29:35] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. [00:29:37] Speaker C: So, yeah, it's funny, those moments that. [00:29:42] Speaker A: We remember, definitely I am thankful that happened in a non punitive way because the officer had every right to be like, listen, you are tearing this place down brick by brick. Here's your rip, you know, but they chose to do it in a manner that I still remember it now. And I'm, you know, I embody conversations like that and want to take them now when I have other conversations. I want it to be that counseling session. Hey, man, you know, I want to give you some advice versus step into my office, please. [00:30:12] Speaker C: Well, it's also a good opportunity to find out and discover, like, where does that. Where does the negativity come from? You know, for me, like, early on in my career, I'll be honest, there was times where I would point out other people's problems. And it's difficult to be honest and go, that had a lot to do with me trying to build myself up. And I think that that's easy to happen at times. And I finally got to this place where I Don't need to do that. I don't need to take somebody else down. I can focus on the behaviors or the actions, which maybe as an organization, but I do need to be careful about pointing out other people's mistakes in a way that is just okay, that's going to make me look better if I bring them down. And so I think in those interactions as a supervisor is to, like, kind of dig a little bit and learn even more before just providing the advice. So that's where, to me, it's going to the conversation. Be curious, you know, state an observation. Hey, I noticed that it seems like you tend to hop on the negativity bandwagon. I'm really curious to know where that's coming from. [00:31:17] Speaker B: Yeah, and I actually just had an article published in Gems for this quarter that's about this idea of organizational leadership and transparency and interacting with different types of staff. And one of the things I mentioned in that article that I truly believe is fundamental to the relationship between the employee and the employer or the supervisor is, if, Steve, you're my boss, and I believe that you want me to be successful, there's a huge ability for me to take a lot of feedback from you. Whereas if I, you know, there's other people that I work for in other organizations where I felt like they were just looking for a reason to fire me. They were just following me around, waiting for me to make a mistake so they could bite me and throw me out of the department and take all my uniforms away. And I think, you know, if you want to just speak, you know, just for a couple minutes on, like, how do you build that trust where you can give someone some really hard feedback? I mean, I've gotten written up by officers where I shake their hand and say, hey, thank you. It won't happen again. No big deal. I really appreciate that. Like, you're right. And it was a comfortable, relaxed exchange, even though I had discipline. And there's other times where people have just said something to me. You know, one time a chief officer told me to change my workout shorts, and it was like I was mad for a week. I was like, how dare he tell me what to wear? Like, this is what. Doesn't he have better things to do? Like, so where does that relationship come from? And how do you start to engage with that to the point where you can give someone tough feedback and then they still appreciate the relationship you have? [00:32:43] Speaker C: Well, it starts with, I don't have any control over whether or not they appreciate the relationship. And recognizing that keeps Me at a level where I'm okay, it's before that interaction, it's working to establish a relationship and then recognizing when there might not be one or it might be a little bit rocky. And right now, one of the things that I. That I. A challenge that I face is that that within our fire department, there's this negative association with discipline. And for me, I don't view discipline as a negative. I view discipline as a form of feedback. And that there's either informal or formal types of discipline. Formal is the one that people think of as big, bad, and scary. It's a piece of paper that's just documenting. And there could be, depending on your organization, some consequences associated with it. But it's feedback about when an expectation isn't being met. And that doesn't need to be personal. It's just. It's feedback to get you back on track. So if I didn't care, I wouldn't say anything. If I didn't care about the organization, if I didn't care about you as an individual, it would be easy to just let you miss the expectation and the mark and then talk about you behind your back and then passive aggressively bring it up in an annual performance evaluation instead. Let's be direct, let's be assertive and deal with it. And what I'm. I guess what I'm getting at is the relationship between the supervisor and the subordinate. When you have a culture of viewing things in a negative way, it takes a while to get through that. And for them to realize that when we're having a conversation, it's not trying to frame them for something. The questions are there to understand what went down, because I don't need to change it. I just want to understand it. And then we'll deal with it whatever's appropriate. And it usually is at a pretty low level. But it's amazing how defensive people are and scared and they think you're out to get them. And it's like, I'm not. I just want to know what happened. And then if what happened isn't acceptable, then I just want to make it clear that that can't happen again. And that's what they call discipline. It's like, that's what it is. It's not a punishment. It's just a reminder. [00:35:01] Speaker B: And so as we wrap up here, what's one thing that a supervisor can do that's going to start making an impact on their ability to be ready for feedback from their staff? Information. Moving up the chain. And what's one thing that the subordinates can start to do that's going to make this process easier. As feedback comes down the chain, do you have any advice to both the subordinate and the supervisor? How can they start to meet in the middle here and make this process a little easier? [00:35:29] Speaker C: I think that it really starts with finding a way to work on that self awareness piece, honestly. Because I think that when we talk about those triggers or those barriers, a lot of it has to do with emotion. And so if we can work on ways to be more self aware and mindful as like, funny it is to say that about the fire service or emergency services, it really does help help, and it goes a long way. And so, like, the book that I brought up earlier would be a great one for a supervisor to take a look at. Again, that's thanks for the feedback by Doug Stone and Sheila Heen. I found that it's a really easy read and it lays things out in a way that, to me, makes sense. So a good book for a supervisor and a subordinate. But I would say start with just being aware of how you're showing up and give yourself grace. If you're just really starting to put an emphasis on that, it might take a little time, like you were talking about the gap between that stimulus and a response. Might be a day for you. But if you keep working on it, it'll be hours, maybe minutes. And then before you know, it'll be in the moment, you'll catch yourself. Ooh. I was about to do this because I felt defensive and I wanted to regain control of the situation. I don't need to. So, yeah. Yeah, I guess that's where I would start. [00:36:47] Speaker B: Yeah, that's great feedback and. And Prescott for you. You and I have been in this job a long time and we both have carried our fair share of pitchforks, both for and against different items in our careers. What's something that, knowing our backgrounds, what's something you can tell a young, motivated, passionate person that's just feeling these powerful waves, these tsunamis of emotion when these pieces of feedback are coming at them? Now that you're on the other side of the chief's desk, what can you share with them about how to be successful when those things are happening? [00:37:20] Speaker A: Yeah. And I appreciate Nick, because we have carried plenty of pitchforks. And I think I've had this. Some of it, you talk about feedback. Some of it, I've gone into the situation with a negative connotation saying, no one's going to listen to this idea. It's trash to begin with. Or I don't think it's trash, but I think the people that I'm presenting it to are going to think it's trash. Whereas what I would say is, early on, when you have that passion, and I mean early on, like when you first have this idea and you want to take it to the next step and you're really excited about it, if you are met with an initial disappointment, don't turn that passion to negativity and said, it's all over. The chief sucks. This department sucks. Just because my one idea didn't get pushed up to the next level. What I would say is that's where that self awareness piece, and that's like the takeaway from this entire podcast, that self awareness piece of saying, okay, I am about to fly off the handle about this. Maybe I can talk to my officer, whether it be lieutenant, captain, chief officer, and explain things a little bit differently, approach it a little bit differently. Because the second I would fly off the handle, the second I would lose that level of emotional intelligence, I had pretty much lost that battle with, again, depending on your supervisor, you may have lost that battle completely. Whereas if you have the self awareness to bring yourself down and say, all right, I'm going to approach this from a different angle, maybe from a different person and have that conversation, it can go a much further way. [00:38:57] Speaker B: I appreciate that, Prescott. Well, thanks for that, Steve. Thanks for joining us on the show. Appreciate you making time. It only took five years to get you on the podcast. [00:39:05] Speaker C: Thanks for your patience. [00:39:06] Speaker B: Yeah, of course. And Prescott, take it easy over there on the other side of Colchester, and we will see you soon. Thank you, gentlemen. [00:39:13] Speaker C: It.