Episode Transcript
[00:00:07] Speaker A: Hello.
[00:00:08] Speaker B: Welcome back to another episode of the Code 321 podcast. The much awaited episode is here today. We have a very special guest and my good friend Chris Matanis here joining us all the way from Kentucky. And we have Prescott in the house as well. As always, our co host on the show, Prescott. How you doing?
[00:00:24] Speaker C: Very well. Very well indeed. Thanks for asking.
[00:00:26] Speaker B: Thanks for making some time for us. And Chris, welcome to the show. It's been a long time coming. I know. I did an episode show and I've had you penciled in. We finally the cosmos aligned and we made it work. Welcome to the show. How you doing?
[00:00:39] Speaker A: Thank you very much for having me, Nick. It's a pleasure and honor to be here and be on your show.
You know, it has been a long time coming, right? You know, we've tried to get this arranged for a while, but the Stars and the Cosmos just didn't allow it. And, you know, now that I'm finally settled here in Kentucky, I'm looking forward to having this great conversation.
[00:00:58] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And I think making sure that we pick the right topic too, you know, we didn't want to, you know, burn you just on first aid essentials or something. We wanted to make sure we use it for a really rich topic with a lot to offer. So I think this one's going to be great. What we're going to be talking about today is a little teaser into Chris and my presentation we're going to be doing at Crash and Learn coming up next month called Recruit, Retain, Reinvigorate. And we're going to talk a lot about why are we losing great candidates in the first stages of them applying to this career field? Why are we losing good people who make it in the job and leave after a few years? And then what do we do with the old dogs that we need, you know, that are leaving because they're burnout? What can we do to try to protect this beautiful job and these great people that are working in this industry that we care about so much? So, Chris, if you don't mind, do you want to just share just a little bit about how you first got into emergency services, fire, ems, public safety and kind of what, what has your path been like into what you're doing today?
[00:01:56] Speaker A: Yeah, man, I, you know, first and foremost, you know, sitting here, I never would have envisioned I'd be on a podcast, sitting here, talking, you know, being an educator. It just wasn't what I envisioned when I first got into this career field. Right. So for a lot of people who don't know me. My name is Chris McConaugh. I was the founder and owner of iAmed, most recently sold it in 2022 and kind of moved on to some other projects. But how I got into this was, you know, I was a swimmer, so I became a lifeguard naturally, you know, make some extra money. It was an easy job. But then after my first save of someone jumping into the deep end, we had platforms and so we had someone jump off the first and the third at the same time. And the third, third platform person landed on top of the first platform person who sustained a neck injury. And just the adrenaline rush and being there for that individual and just watching fire and EMS when they got on scene, work cohesively as a unit, like just solidified what I wanted to do. And so in high school I went through the fire science program. So half of the day of high school I would just spend getting my EMP and my firefighter one and two. And so when I graduated, I was able to walk away and immediately become a firefighter. The agency I worked for put me through paramedic school. You know, I had my AMT and then I went to paramedic. I did that for my three years. And once I hit three years, I was getting so bored with fire and ems. I, I loved medicine. I loved the critical thinking and just the never ending dynamic of learning, right? So with that, I kind of advanced into critical care air medicine. And I've been doing that for the last 17 years and I thoroughly enjoyed that. So out of that I had a back injury following a hard crash and a hard landing. And so I kind of reassessed things and that's when I started and founded iAmed. I wanted to make critical care education better for our industry and for others because what I saw is a niche. And so I did that up until I sold the company. And now I currently work for North American Rescue as their training education manager, managing all of our training education for North American Rescue on the learning management system. I also work for Heavyweights of Hellman as their accreditation manager and managing their learning management system. Apparently I picked up a niche in technology which is just beyond me because I never was the technology guy and now I'm the go to guy for anything with, you know, online education. And so it's been great. And then after I sold iMed, you know, I wanted to give back to the community. I suffered a mental health sentinel event is what I call it, back in January 7, 2022 or I had a complete mental breakdown. I spent 10 days in a, in a behavioral health hospital. And so when I got out, you know, going through those trials and tribulations and challenges of trying to recover is what I call it, and improve my mental health, I saw the challenges that first responders go to, that I've been hearing about. Right. But you don't understand it until you actually go through it. And so with that, I founded mine, the Front Line, which is a forward facing, public safety, mental health and wellness nonprofit.
And it's been a fun ride, man, 26 years almost in public safety, and I'm enjoying every minute of it.
[00:05:03] Speaker B: Yeah, no, we appreciate all that guidance. I know I'm unique because I encountered you as an iMed instructor, obviously going through, when I was prepping, moving from the fire department as a medic, trying to get a job on a flight service, kind of encountered you that way and meeting you at the conference and, and originally thinking I was maybe going to get involved with you. And I am, Ed, and you being like, hey, actually I got this little startup thing, you know, any interest in doing that? And you know, I, again, like you mentioned, not. I wouldn't have imagined, you know, that you and I would write a book together and get it on Amazon and publish and you know, do go to conferences and all the things we've done with mine, the Front Line, it's, it's been a really fun ride and it really goes to show when you have friends around you that believe in you, that work really well together. Like, it honestly doesn't matter what T shirt you're wearing or what job you're doing. Like, if there's a passion there, like, we're gonna, we're gonna get it done or find our way up. So thanks, you know, from me to you, thanks for always giving me the opportunity to, to keep pushing and keep doing some new things. So I appreciate that.
And Prescott, welcome to the show. Glad that you could finally meet Chris. I feel like the two of you are two of my greatest influences when it comes to my development, you know, post getting on the truck and putting my bunker gear on, you know, for the next chapter. And, and I'm so glad we can have you guys both here. And one of the things Chris just said, I think really can kick us off about how he had the opportunity to go through his high school and do a little bit of public safety while he was in high school. And that's something that I don't think we really have a ton of around here. You know, correct me if I'm wrong, But other than volunteer, I mean, there's not a lot of programs where you can go to your required by law high school and also prepare yourself to go into a job like firefighting or ems. And you know, I think of the correlation between, you know, youth sports and communities that have really good youth sports programs tend to really dominate in high school because they have folks that are coming up through these organized levels of play.
And what do you think we can do in our community? I mean, you're the fire chief now down in Hinesburg and you're looking for good recruitment. What's one way you can look at that, you know, 12 to 18 year old group and start to say, like, you want to come out ready for a great job, ready to serve your community with purpose and have the best job in the world. You know, what can we do to get, get that ball rolling? Have you thought about that at all?
[00:07:16] Speaker C: Yeah, and something really neat that just falls right in line with this conversation is the fact that when I was in my previous location, I found, you know, that was a missing piece. And the young folks that came through our door, we would simply do basic ride alongs and some education for a 12 hour shift or something along those lines. But then off they went.
You know, I then joined my current department and I am absolutely thrilled. We literally just finished up a hiring process in which we brought on three cadets. And these cadets start at age 16, they're in high school and they go through.
We put them through both a fire program and an EMS program. So they get a little bit of both worlds and they can decide from there which world they want to pursue at the age of 18, obviously we hope it's with us. But at the end of the day, we also acknowledge that we are a feeder system for a lot of surrounding agencies, even other agencies around the country. But that is a group that remains untapped in so many other organizations. If we can take them for a couple years, 16 through 18, and then give them that passion, that same passion, by the way, that you just alluded to, Nick, that comes from group sports group, you know, that sports mentality. We can be their coaches, we can be that, you know, fill that area for them and then what do we get out of it? We get passionate people that we have put that bug in their ear and they can then, you know, the drive is then theirs to go wherever they want. We just hope obviously they stay with us.
[00:08:51] Speaker B: Yeah, no, 100%. And I think, you know, Chris, going back to you here, I think one of the Things we talk a lot about in mind, the front line. And a big theme we saw in that book and a lot of our submissions is this idea that when people are going through EMT class or cadet training and they first get into the service, they don't always have a great, transparent view of what they might encounter. We don't always prepare them for, you know, what you might see and how you might feel and kind of those experiences that you go through in your first few calls. You know, I remember very distinctly my first cardiac arrest being, like, pretty shocking and pretty intense. And at that time, not one. No one had ever told me that that was going to be like that. You know, they were just like, oh, yeah, if someone's heart stops, do cpr. But there wasn't a lot of conversation about, like, what their eyes look like, like that kind of stuff, you know, and then afterwards, it was kind of like, you know, congrats, you did your first CPR call. Well, we'll see you tomorrow. There wasn't a lot of, like, additional pieces there. What do you think that we can be doing better with our young folks who are coming in to prepare them for not only the physical components. I mean, I think about how much training we do, you know, how to take a blood pressure, how to read an ekg. But what about, like, how to take care of yourself and build that resiliency from day one? What can we be doing better?
[00:10:07] Speaker A: Yeah, there's a lot of good information that you just, you know, you just posed there. So I want to unpack maybe a couple of them one at a time. So let's look back at, you know, these programs and these feeder programs. You know, I thought where I was very fortunate in the Salt Lake City Valley, where the high school had, you know, basically partnered up with the college in the area, Salt Lake Community College. And so they had a place called Jordan Tech Center. So there was a lot of these courses through high school that you were offered. You know, it could be cna. They had those. They had EMT courses, they had fire.
The course I ended up signing up for was the fire EMS. And what I liked about that, you know, at 18, I was getting exposed to daily calls. I was in class.
You know, it was very structured and rigid. And so I got to see a lot of those things before I decided if this was the career for me. And obviously, you know, talking about my history and how I got into this, it absolutely was. But I can understand the flip side of that. You know, if we're coming out and doing a 12 hour ride. You know, these ride alongs kids want to come out. And you know what we tend to forget as EMS providers that are active in the field is these are just young kids, they have never been exposed to this before. I think we forget that perspective. And so you kind of do need to build and elude that student or that ride along or that potential candidate up, right? Like you can't just say hey here. Like you, for example, you know, you went on a CPR call, you might have already done CPR on a mannequin, but it's completely different when you're doing it on a live person. You get those bodily fluids and just everything that entails with a complete cardiac arrest call that people can envision. And so what we fail to do I think is really prepare these new individuals for what they're going to encounter in the field. And so that could be, hey, you know, when you go on a CPR call, this is what you're going to do, this is what you're going to see. It's going to be a little different. If there's any questions like, please let me know. We have to be a little bit more empathetic, right? Like when I came into it, it was still like the old salty dog mentality, you know, very paramilitary is, you know, hey, just get in, push on the chest, shut up, don't ask questions, go home, don't talk about what just happened. Because I remember my very first call at 18 where we went on a, it was a cardiac arrest due to hypoglycemia. Right? So it was a diabetic emergency, went into cardiac arrest because of that. And we're working it and you know, I remember just going back and you know, when my day's over at 2:50 in the afternoon, I go, I go on to my part time lifeguard job and I'm like, wait, what just happened? You know, this is my first time I've ever been through it. You know, nobody actually sat down and we just never did a really good job, I think really, truly debriefing and also being aware and cognizant of everybody's skills and experience and knowledge and that, that was involved in that call. Right. So you have anywhere from Captain Prescott here, you know, Chief Prescott, sorry, don't want to take away from you, you know, who's been doing it for a while. So you've seen it. All right? And then we have, you know, maybe our booter, but then we have the, the candidate, right? They, they have not been exposed to this. And so we really need to do a better job and being a little bit more empathetic and really kind of breaking it down to the basics after a call so they can walk away with some of that. And that starts instilling this. Like you said, what can we be doing to train these people for resiliency and things like that? We have to lead by example.
You know, you have to be more empathetic. You have to have a culture in place that you can be vulnerable and safe. Right. This is not the military.
And even in the military you're seeing a transition and an adjustment in how we approach some of these things.
And so to build resiliency for new candidates and stuff like that, you know, what we need to be doing probably is being better ourselves because we're not necessarily all doing it as full time, active members of this EMS community, fire, public safety, wherever you want to put yourself.
And so how do you expect that to rub off if you're not currently practicing it every day? How do you think you're going to transpose that knowledge or information to someone who's new? Because you're not even aware of it sometimes. I know I wasn't, for many years, I wasn't even aware of how to deal with some of this stuff. So I think just being better on the front end of we gotta start practicing ourselves because then it becomes habit. When it becomes habit, it becomes muscle memory. And so then you're more apt to have these deeper conversations and really kind of dive into these candidates, you know, after a hard call or an easy call, they shall be the kind of a very similar debrief and then bringing them in. You know, when you bring someone in, I think we do need to do a better job of really kind of describing what they're going to go through. Right. They don't necessarily fully understand and you typically don't get this understanding until you're at least three to five years of actively working full time. Because you get, you don't know what, you don't know when you first get into this. So you have to be exposed to that. And so I think being able to convey that to the, the candidate, the new ride along, the recruit, whoever, you really kind of set them up for the whole picture. It's not just the lights and sirens, it's not just the woo woos, right? It's, there's so much more that goes beyond that. You know, there's humility, there's, you know, good time management, project management, because you have skills and tasks you need to be doing outside of things.
Honesty, trustworthiness, like, these are all things that, you know, as I say, are more kind of character based, driven. But a lot of new recruits that I'm seeing might not necessarily have some of this emotional intelligence or the characters that is needed to be successful in this career field.
[00:15:45] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. I know Prescott and I have talked a lot over the last few episodes about the role of the senior firefighter and how important it is to have that mentorship, you know, somebody that's around and. And I know when I was running the recruit academy, it's one of the big things that we used to do is just spend a tremendous amount of time together doing all kinds of different things. High stress, low stress, downtime, long hours, short hours, like, you know, out in the hot weather, cold weather. Just really putting everyone in as many environments as we could and have, making sure that the right people were around them. So that when we started to see, you know, people trying to break the land speed record for breathing down a CBA bottle, you can just have that senior guy that just puts her hand on the shoulder and says, hey, take a breath like, we've been here before. The roof is not collapsing. You're going to use that thing in your hand called the nozzle, and you're going to put the fire out, right? And like, I think that that has a huge benefit towards mental health and longevity and resilience. Knowing, like, when you are feeling a little bit, like, imbalanced and a little bit overwhelmed, having that, like, you know, big, thick mustache next to you or, you know, girl with a. With a long ponytail that's been there for a long time and can say, hey, you know what to do. And I'm right here if you get confused and I'm here to help you, but you got this, like, just that little nudge. And sometimes that's. I worked for a lieutenant for a long time who was one of my favorite bosses ever. That entire communication was done with just a hand on the shoulder. I'd be like, wrestling with the door, doing whatever. And he would just put his hand on the back of my shoulder and he'd just give me, like, one squeeze. And I'd be like, okay, my lieutenant's behind me. If I can't do this, he's got it. And then nine times out of 10, I would look down and be like, oh, the ads is backwards. That's why that's not working. And then you fix it. But it's just that little, like, you're not alone. I got your back. And that can be very quick and easy. Prescott, how do you, when you hire new people and you start to put them in these high stress situations, what are some strategies you have to make sure that they have that apparatus for support when they need it.
[00:17:38] Speaker C: So the key detail there, and we're experiencing this right now, like I alluded to earlier with the hiring the three new cadets, bringing them through it before we even entertained bringing a single cadet on, I as the leader of this organization needed to make sure that the people that would be their mentors, the people that would be that guiding hand on the shoulder were prepared. Because if it's, if those mentors, if those senior firefighters, those senior EMS providers are not prepared themselves, that when you desperately need that physical grounding touch on the shoulder, if you not only don't get that, if you get chaos instead and they amp the situation up even more because they are not in control or they don't have, you know, they maybe haven't been provided these same resources that we're hoping that our new cadets are, then we're setting up our new people for failure and this cyclical system just continues where then these three new cadets are going to end up 12 months down the road, maybe not even with our organization or if they do remain with our organization, they aren't set up for that true resiliency. That word resiliency is so key. And really if we can set our current leaders up, our lieutenants, our captain, deputy chief, everyone right through the organization so that when that guiding physical grounding touch does occur, it's exactly what they need.
[00:19:05] Speaker B: Yeah, 100%. I think you hit the nail right on the head there, you know, and I think we've talked a little bit about what we do for new folks and people who are potentially coming into this career. And one of the really key groups I want to touch on is the, you know, been there for three to five years and now they're looking for a new job. Some of them are leaving the career field altogether, some of them are going to different agencies. The greener pasture approach. I think that we see a lot of folks in that three to five year period really looking to jump ship and some of them are not coming back and some of them are just going to different departments and changing the T shirt. And so some of the things that we've seen as trends that are contributing to that and I'll take both of your input on this is really related to the management style of that organization. How are we treating the people that are working hard for us day in and day out.
And one of the things we do through buying the Frontline that Chris knows about, obviously, is where we're contracted to write an article once a quarter. And one of the articles we put out was Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde. And it's all about the management style where. What. Who's in Chief Prescott's office? Is it Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde? Am I going to go in there and say, hey, Chief, I noticed that we're missing a length of hose in the truck, and he's going to go, great catch. Let's take care of this. Thanks, buddy. You're a great asset to the organization. Or is it the guy who says, well, you should have done your truck check and now I'm going to write you up. This, that, the other thing. So, Chris, what are some things you've seen, trends you've seen across all your agencies where that, you know, initial three to five year, maybe not quite a lieutenant, not quite a probationary member, you know, what's pushing them out, what's causing them to start looking for that greener pasture or even leave the career field?
[00:20:42] Speaker A: That's a great question, and I think it's something that we as an industry need to look at, right? I don't have the answer. This is just what I've seen. So this is just, you know, based on my opinion. But one of the lectures I like to give at some of the conferences is the fact that culture is king, right? So your culture is your brand.
And so there's many of the fire departments that, you know, as a new recruit, you may not know, like, this is a good one versus a bad one, but you certainly can ask around, right? And so you might not even be getting recruits just because of, you know, your brand and your culture. And it's just well known.
What happens is some people just take a job because it's a job, right? So I'm in the job. I take a job for a job, and then I get in there and I'm like, ah, man, I. This is not a good place, you know, but you need the experience. So there's a catch 22 on that. But we're. I think we're seeing a lot of the three to five year experienced individuals leave organizations is. There's. There's probably a couple things, culture being one of them, right? Like who's in the office? Is it. Is it Chief Prescott or is it Chief you know, Hyde? You know, we, we want the supportive, and it Starts at the top start. Leadership starts with the CEO, starts with the leader of the organization, and then it trickles down from that point.
When it comes to the three to five years, they're also, you're looking at, if I don't have a good culture, I don't do some of these things and keep people engaged, provide good tools and resources and facilitate that and really kind of, you know, create an environment that people want to be there. Right. Like, I remember there's some agencies I worked at that I wanted to be, I wanted to go to work. I look forward to it. And there was others where I was like, I couldn't get out there, get out of there fast enough.
And so you kind of hit this stage about three to five years into your career at, you know, at an organization where maybe you're getting stale, you're getting stagnated, people aren't listening to your ideas, you're not engaged, you don't find, you're not included. So you don't have purpose. Right? Like, if I don't have a meaning and purpose within an organization, then I'm just kind of showing up, clocking in, clocking out. I'm just a body in a seed at that.
So it does start with leadership. You know, you have to keep these people engaged. You gotta find. Because where I was when I first came in as a booter and where I was in five years, I need a different seat to stay engaged and keep learning and, you know, feeling included. But if I'm feeling ostracized or I'm feeling shut out, because maybe I'm the lone wolf or I'm the one that wants to maintain a high standard and the rest of the company doesn't. You know, there, there becomes this resentment, right? And as we fester resentment, it turns into anger and just distrust. And all that gets built up to the point where, yeah, I think the greener pasture syndrome comes on. They're like, okay, I'm going to go try it over here. But at three to five years, you have the experience, you have the ability to probably get on an agency a little bit easier. And more importantly, you kind of know where you want to go because you're a little bit more sure about yourself. But I would say wholeheartedly, it all starts with leadership. And you're seeing a lot of these individuals leave because of burnout, fatigue, not finding a meaning or purpose in what they're doing every day. They don't even know where they belong in the organization. So why would I stick around? Why Would I give my time, which is my most valuable resource, to someone who doesn't appreciate it? Right. Or it isn't appreciated. And I'm really seen as a number in a body versus what my brain or what my physicality, what I can bring to the table and being included in that conversation. So that's just my two cents. I'd love to hear what Chief Prescott says because, you know, he's, he's in leadership, he's leading an agency.
[00:24:16] Speaker C: So, yeah, no, it's just super fast on that. One of the things that struck me real hard on that is a bit of accountability. So we've mentioned that in this conversation already. And one of the things that has really struck me is as a leader, and I am like the top dog in the fire department here right now, but I have other leaders below me. If, if what we're doing here is hearing stuff from the, the boots on the ground, especially that three to five year mark, and we're not doing anything with it, we're just providing lip service, then what they're going to do is, you know, for the first, call it, three years, you know, if you're a bad leader, you're pulling the wool over their eyes. People can last three years thinking, it's going to get better, it's going to get better, it's going to get better. And then when it doesn't, you get to that five year mark and you're like, my God, I think I've been gaslighted for the past five years. And then you, you, you leave and you leave disgruntled, and you leave disgruntled with a lack of trust for the organization, saying, or, or maybe for the profession, maybe you say, EMS in the fire service isn't for me because I feel like I've wasted three, you know, three, five, whatever years of my life. Whereas if you as a leader, if you have that culture of accountability from your senior firefighter, your lieutenant captain, right up through my position as chief of department, where you can say, okay, something, you know, somebody mentioned this to me, we need to address this. Obviously not every little, you know, like somebody, you know, took the ketchup bottle and didn't refill it. Some of the more meaningful items, when people come into your office that really, it's arguably some of the more awkward things. Nobody likes conflict. But those are when you have that belly siren go off and you say, man, this is going to be a crucial conversation. This is going to be an awkward conversation. Those are the ones that almost need to be Addressed right off the bat, knowing that the further you push those down the road, you may end up gaslighting that employee right out of a job.
[00:26:08] Speaker B: Yeah, you just put them in the echo chamber, the cone of silence, and then they become a robot. And then they're like, you know what? I'm gonna go somewhere where. Where someone understands me and prioritizes my growth and feels like I'm, you know, contributing member of the team. And I just want to read you this little excerpt that I pulled from the Harvard Business Review. I got a whole anthology of leadership books because I'm a weirdo, and I bought them at the airport and read them on the plane, which is really fascinating. But the mantra that they talk about in this, that was drawn off of a survey of the workforce in big tech was this mantra saying, this is what I'm good at. This is how I work best. These are my values. This is my contribution, and this is what I should be expected to deliver. And I thought about that a lot. And I think that every really powerful leader that makes me feel like I want to be there for 50 years at that job has known the answers to those questions about me as the subordinate. They can look at me and say, you know, this is what Nick's good at. This is how he works best. These are. This is what he cares about. This is what he likes to contribute, and this is what I expect from him. And there have been some times where, like, Steve bed. It's a great example. He's been on the show before. He was my boss at one time and a really good friend of mine, my business partner. And there would be times where we. I'd do something for him, and he'd say, hey, this is not what I expect from you. And it was just like a really sobering moment of, like, you know what? That this is not what I expect from myself. And, like, that was really powerful to me. Whereas if someone just accepts a low quality product from me and just says, yeah, thanks, whatever, it's like, well, why even try for something greater? But to have those friends and those mentors and those teachers that are willing to say the uncomfortable thing and say, like, you can do better than this. I've seen you do better than this. Let's keep that standard up. Let's keep pushing. Let's keep learning and working together. You know, I think that that's. I think that that's something really powerful that goes a long way. So as we kind of come to a close here, the last thing I want to just Touch on is your very senior members, those members that we absolutely need. And I think about this, when I was, when I was running the recruit academy, we had folks that would, I would pull in to help train.
You know, you'd ask the tower company to come down to do drills with you and, and help with some of the technical rescue stuff. And there'd be like the, you know, 27 year lieutenant hanging out in the back of the room and you have some, you know, five year guy teaching a knot, you know, and it's like, yo, that guy has pulled like three people off buildings in the last 10 years. Like why? Like we need him, we need him up front. Like, let's hear what you have to say. And you just like, you kind of like coax out a little bit, even if it's two minutes. And while he's holding a cup of coffee about like, hey, don't forget about this. You're like, that's we need, that's not in the textbook. So how do you, you know, maybe, maybe Chris first here, how do you take those folks that have a tremendous amount to offer but maybe are so humble that they won't put themselves in the spotlight? How do you, what strategies do you have for keeping them around, keeping them engaged and maybe giving them an avenue to give back or at least get that knowledge out?
[00:29:04] Speaker A: I think it just comes down to what Chief said is, is in what you said it, which really hit home for me. I like that business, the Harvard Business Review, because I think a good leader knows all those points about each of their employees or each of their subordinates that, you know, are underneath them. And it's important because, you know, you mentioned mentorship, right? Like these are the individuals that make amazing mentors because they know all the little ins and outs that you won't find in a textbook because they've actually done it where I've seen some of these individuals and we all know that they're the guy, the big stash in the back that's super quiet. Just, you know, but everybody's, you know, looking at the teacher but then looking back at the, at the guy in the back, right? And you're like, you know, and I can quickly pick up as an educator if I'm visiting who people are really looking up to, who those silent leaders are, right? And that's kind of what I call them. Every organization needs what we call a silent leader, right? They lead up, they're quiet, they're humble. So I'm not saying that I would come around and say hey, we need to make this individual louder or more present because we do need the silent leadership. But where these individuals, I think, pull back is because they're not supported, right? They're not supported by leadership. They could be burned out. They may have tried it before. And because they were gaslighted, for example, because I know that happened to me for so long, they're just like, okay, well then why bother?
I can't make a difference.
So I'm not going to fight the system anymore. I'm just going to hang out in the back, I'm going to drink my coffee and I'll, you know, if I feel like it, I'll pipe up. Or if someone asks me a direct question, I'll pipe up.
When you start really harboring and fostering a really inclusive environment and culture within your agency and you start listening more, I think leaders need to do a lot, a lot more listening. We think that because we're leaders, others need to listen to us. And that's not necessarily true. That's what I came in as a young leader. I felt like everybody need to listen to me because, you know, I've made it. I, you know, but that was modeled activity and behavior based on the leaders I had before me. And it really took professional growth and development by reading a bunch of books that I found at an airport to really kind of understand that. And so how we keep these people or get them re engaged is I think leadership needs to approach them, you know, and, and really facilitate and foster that environment. And if they know that person, that individual, hey, this is what this, you are good at. Not, you know, if you could, you know, maybe like you do with me sometimes when I took a break and kind of got burned out, hey, I'm going to sign you up for a podcast and be a co speaker at this talk, you know, and that helped me re engage because we all go through burnouts in parts of our lives where we want to be more engaged or less engaged. So first, I think as a leadership, as a leader, you need to come to that individual and kind of really, hopefully understand the totality of what's going on. Right? Like, are they just busy? Are they have a side job? You know, maybe it's not their passion anymore. But if you are an engaged leader within your organization, you probably know what this individual is going through and that they have more to give. Right? And as a leader, I want to, that's my job, is to push people to grow beyond what they can see for themselves. And if I know what someone's capable of. I can help guide them and hopefully re engage them and say, hey, what, what problems? And you have to listen, right? You have to listen to what that individual is going to say. You may not like it because you might be taking 10 years of frustration, 17, 27 years of frustration out on Chief Prescott, right, that he had no control over. But if you could be a good leader and you can take that and be humble and listen and address what you can change and then follow through on some of those things, that's where you get buy in. So we have to re buy in these people that have bought in before, but we lost them at some point along the way. And so how do we do buy in? Well, that's everything that you've said culture, listening, you know, really taking to heart, finding a way to re engage them through meaning and purpose. What do they like to do within the organization?
One of the things I borrowed from technology, I'll just be real quick on this is scrum. I love to scrum. And so one of the things that we look at every year at iMed is do we have the right person in the right seat? And I would look at everything from an instructor to customer support to marketing. Everybody on my team, all 50 employees every year I would go through and score them and basically if they're not in the right seat or they're not doing the job, it's not to go, oh, I just identified that so and so is not doing the job. So I'm going to come down hard on them and say, hey, you need to be doing more. It's to come out and seek to understand and go, hey, here's your job and here's your responsibility. This is what's going on. This is what I've noticed. You know, do you still enjoy what you're doing? Do you still like to be in customer support? Do you still like marketing? Do you still want to be an instructor on the road all the time time and really adapt and you have to do these annual kind of check ins, whatever that might look like, look like in your agency to really stay engaged with this individual and these individuals to understand every year that it may change what I like doing this year may change next year. And I want to have a resource or the ability to tell somebody, you know, my manager, my supervisor, my chief, my captain, whoever, hey, I kind of would like to do this. And we need to have a way to foster that. Because if someone wants to go into say tactical medicine or be on the TAC team, well if they don't get that, they're going to go find the information. They're going to go find a way to do what they want to do.
And so we would be better as an organization and leaders to foster and facilitate that instead of being the barrier to that, because we need to have. We need to have someone in this seat. You keep someone in a seat that they don't want to be in, they're not going to do a good job. They're eventually not going to come back, and that's when we lose them. So that's just, you know, kind of what I. What I've seen and what I've experienced myself firsthand.
[00:34:48] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's a great point. I actually just had an experience very similar to that in my organization. I was doing training, education. That's what I've been heavily involved in for, like, the last 15 years. And. And we had this, like, come to Jesus moment where we're sitting down talking, and they were kind of like, you know, you just don't seem very interested in this particular thing. I go, yeah, I'm not at all. And they go, what? And I was like, I do this because I'm good at it. And you asked me to do it. Like, I'm facilitating a need that you asked me about. They're like, do you even like any of this? I said no. And I was like, I'm really interested in radios.
[00:35:21] Speaker A: You're doing it out of the goodness of your heart, which you're going to those good employees that still does something, even though they don't like it. Right. But we don't want to keep that person in that seat too long. Right. Because what's going to happen, they're going to find another seat to sit in.
[00:35:35] Speaker B: And it was like. It was like, shocking to them. They just assumed because I was doing it day in, day out and the projects were getting done, that I had this, like, burning passion and I couldn't get enough of it. I'm like, no, this is like. This is like sweeping the floor for me. This is like cleaning the back of my car. Like, I do it because it needs to be done. And then I was able to change and do something I'm really interested in that's new and different. And, you know, sometimes just, you know, being able to try something different can really refresh a motivated employee. Just put them in a different spot. And I love that Scrum idea. I think that makes a lot of sense.
[00:36:05] Speaker A: And.
[00:36:05] Speaker B: And Prescott, just to kind of close out with you here, what are some signs and symptoms that a leader can look for in a subordinate that might tell you, hey, maybe we need to start taking a look at is this person happy? Is, is, are they in the best position? You know, are they, are we getting the most out of them that we can and are they getting the most out of us? Like what would be some like warning signs that you might notice in someone that's going to prompt you, the astute great leader that you are, to start digging deep and figure out what might need to happen there?
[00:36:34] Speaker C: Yeah, no, I. Thank you. Thanks. Thanks.
I mean it goes back to the first thing that Chris was talking about, which is those regular check ins. So like the signs and symptoms we know, we all know because either we've experienced it, we've experienced that, just that dull lethargic feeling like I don't really want to be here, but I'm here and I'm going to do the job because it's paying my bills.
Those symptoms, you know, it could be any job, doesn't have to be fire ADMs. We know those symptoms. What it comes back down to is what we were just alluding to with this leadership piece of being able to say if we don't do that annual check. And listen, I'll tell you one thing, very quick tangent and that is the fact that often, especially right now as a, as a leader of this organization, when someone fills, when their butt is in the seat and that seat is filling the role of, you know, floor sweeper or technologically advanced human or you know, emt, whatever it is, it's like, great, that's filled, check that box, move on to the next thing when, maybe when we do that annual, if we do that annual check in, maybe that's not, not only where they want to be, but maybe their passion lies in something you're not even doing as an organization that you could be doing. When I have seen people flourish, they take off like a bat out of hell. They go, so. And it is amazing how, you know, you could take the floor sweeper who's just literally sweeping in circles because they, that's all they're doing is they hate their job. And all of a sudden you say what about window washing? And they're like, my God, I've been waiting for that for so long. And next thing you know you've got the entire place washed clean, sparkling clean, three times over. So like assessing your people. And I love that annual assessment. But even just recognizing, and I mean this is almost like the footsteps to myself and to Any other chiefly type leaders out there, Right. Maybe assessing and saying, instead of checking the box, saying, we have filled this but in seat, maybe you check in with them to see if they want to continue to do that. And then the signs and symptoms, man, again, we all know it because either we've been there or we've seen a colleague just completely get in.
[00:38:37] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. I know. Like, there's this phrase we used to joke at one of the firehouses we worked in. We used to say, it's not about the dishwasher because there's this guy that was stuck on the ambulance and a really busy house for like four years and he went to close the dishwasher and the dishwasher wouldn't close perfectly. And he proceeded to like just about rip the door off the front of the dishwasher. And like, we kind of like had this joke around the thing where everyone, every time someone get burnout, we're like, bro, it's not about the dishwasher. Like, there's something else that's causing that. And I think that's really true, though. There's a lot of. There's a lot of times where we blow it off and we're like, yeah, he's just a little bit of a grouch and it's like. Or he ran 72 calls in 48 hours and he hasn't slept in four days and he has a newbor and he's sick of it and like, maybe we just check in, you know, so, like, things like that I think are. Are huge. So, Chris and Prescott, I want to thank you guys so much for being here today. Definitely more to come on this. I think we definitely need a part 2. There's plenty to talk about. I want to just plug quickly. We mentioned the quarterly articles that we write for Gems through Mind the Frontline. There's one that is out and available. I'll put it in the show notes. It's called Nobody Wants to Work Anymore. It's a lot more about this topic topic and how we can all contribute. Both new people, candidates, middle management, chief officers, administrators, how we can all kind of collaborate to. To retain this excellent workforce we have here. So, Chris, I want to thank you so much for being here, joining us from Kentucky. Thanks for coming on the show, Prescott, as always, thanks for being here and we want to make sure everyone stays safe out there. And we will see you next month. Thanks, gentlemen.
[00:40:10] Speaker C: Facebook.
